What should WOTC do about Golden Wyvern Adept?

[Fifth Element]

Saying the "Mic's Spell Control" replaces GWA would get an answer of "And that did what again?"

To someone unfamiliar with the 4E feats, sure. Heck, there's dozens, probably hundreds of 3.X feats that I don't know what they do, because they've never been relevant to a character in my games.

If a 4E player with a wizard character is given a new name for GWA, I think chances are good he knows about that feat, since it's relevant to his character.

 

[BryonD]

You asked for a single 1st edition spell that did not describe its function with its name. I provided such an example.

No you did not.

Then you go on to require me to read the function of the spell to learn what the spell does. Hypocrite much?

No hypocrisy at all. You are simply trying to force that the context of the complaint, no matter how many times it is stated, be ignored so that you can replace the real problem which you can not address with a non-problem that you can.

I'm sorry that I'm not brain damaged, but I can manage to associate a name with a function pretty much no matter what the name is and the function is.

Fine. You are a memory master. You start listing name after name after name and the overwhelming majority of gamers are going to have a hard time keeping them straight.

Tenser's transformation is no different than Golden Wyvern Adept in that regard. It's a name that describes a function. TT makes the caster into a non-casting fighter; GWA allows the caster to exclude targets from area of effect spells. Neither is more or less clear than the other.

Wrong. As described mutliple times before. You can keep ignoring the actual problem if you want, but you can not convince anyone of your point by doing that.

Randomly named? Golden Wyvern was already established before we even knew there were feats relating to it. You don't even have to go so far as an assumption to know that there will be quite a few things relating to the Golden Wyvern school in the core rules and that they will follow a theme. It's no more difficult than associating Bigby with giant glowing hands of force.

Again, wrong. Tjat Golden Wyvern is randomly named at a higher level than the feat makes it no less random. Nobody needs to associate "Bigby" with anything. The "Clenched Fist" part of the spell makes it moot background, completely unlike GWA.

 

[Maggan]

I admit to being a little floored that folks think Mordenkainen's sword is just as bad as Golden Wyvern Adept. I don't equate a spell (one of hundreds) with a name that can be dropped (as per SRD) with a feat (the utility of which extends beyond just a specific kind of wizard) with a name that can't be dropped.

I assume that the feat is not compulsory for every single D&D4e PC created. So, there will exist several groups where no PC has access to GWA.

I don't think it is compulsory for every magic user either. So there will be groups with magic users not using the feat.

Will this ruin the game? Probably not.

So, would dropping it altogether ruin the game? Probably not.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

/M

 

[BryonD]

magic users

Ah yes, the power of giant fonts to avoid the real issues. Works every time.

 

[BryonD]

To someone unfamiliar with the 4E feats, sure. Heck, there's dozens, probably hundreds of 3.X feats that I don't know what they do, because they've never been relevant to a character in my games.

If a 4E player with a wizard character is given a new name for GWA, I think chances are good he knows about that feat, since it's relevant to his character.

All the player's in my (very typical) group know the general effect of all the major spells and feats without having to study or use cheat sheets.

And again, you are using the fact that right now there is only one example as a crutch. Once there are many, many of them, I am certain that there will be some level of confusion and delays that is notable more present than in prior edition.

 

[Fifth Element]

No you did not.

Maybe not, but I did. What does chanting have to do with attack bonuses?

 

[BryonD]

Chant = bonus to attacks, damage, and saves? You know the cleric chants, sure. But what does that get you? If you know what this spell does, it's only because you've memorized it.

Just like you can memorize what Golden Wyvern Adept does.

I'm just boggled that you can possibly see those as the same.
If Chant had been called Sing Red Holly, then you would have a point.
But I read Chant once and never again uncertain because the image of a cleric chanting during the battle was so easy to associate.

And yeah, I can memorize GWA. Hell, I'll probably never forget this ONE already. But my players shouldn't have to memorize a bunch of random crap just to play.

I won't memorize GWA or anything else "just like" Chant because I never memorized chant. The clear and simple association made the memorization part unneeded.

 

[Zurai]

No you did not.

I provided a spell name to your challenge of "Give me one 1st edition spell that doesn't describe its function with its name". Your response was to tell me to read the description of what the spell does. Sorry to inform you, but the spell description is not the spell name, and telling me to read the spell description directly invalidates describing a spell by name only. You can spin it any way you like, but the fact that Tenser's transformation does NOT tell you, in its title, what exactly it does means that it is a 1st edition spell that does not describe its function with its name. Thus, yes, I did do exactly what you asked me to do.

Nobody needs to associate "Bigby" with anything. The "Clenched Fist" part of the spell makes it moot background, completely unlike GWA.

So you're telling me that if you had a spell called merely clenched fist, you'd instantly and immediately know that it creates a giant glowing hand made of pure magical energy to punch your enemies, Looney Tunes-style? Instead of, for example, enhancing the caster's ability to make unarmed attacks? How about forceful hand? Can you tell me what that spell does, without looking it up? How about trap? Hell, even I wouldn't know that a spell called trap makes a lock seem to be trapped without actually being trapped at all! How about faithful hound? Lucubration? Sword? Menmonic enhancer? Transformation? Those are all PHB spells.

 

[Zurai]

Ah yes, the power of giant fonts to avoid the real issues. Works every time.

The real issue being that you didn't read what I wrote before responding, right?

 

[BryonD]

Maybe not, but I did. What does chanting have to do with attack bonuses?

You are still not getting the point. Once know the association of chanting during battle to buff your allies is trivial to recall with no memorization required.
The "has to do with" to a degree that the effect can be clearly guessed before reading is the same old bait and switch.

In itself, without ties to any D&D random fluff at any level, Chant immediately draws to mind an on-going vocal recital. Once read that instant association with this on-going act and buffing allies is a gimmie with no required memorization.