What skill best covers the availity to do research?

[hong]

But what if I don't want a rank in it? What if I just want to research something for a one-use thing?

Then you go to a sage, librarian, or whoever, and ask them to research it for you.

 

[Altalazar]

Then you go to a sage, librarian, or whoever, and ask them to research it for you.

Ok, now that's just silly. The whole point of libraries is for the gathering of knowledge that ISN'T just in someone's head. The whole point of a knowledge skill is the ability to come up with an appropriate answer to a related question WITHOUT having to go to the library - the library, as it were, is in your head.

Saying that you can't go to the library and look up something specific you need an answer about because you don't have the skill point borders on the ridiculous, IMO.

Of course, once we go too far with this, we reach the meta-gaming barrier - for instance, say you play a long running campaign where though the course of it, you find clues, pieces of history books, diaries, and so forth in adventures that piece together a history of the land you are in and of a particular person in it, who is an NPC you are seeking. In the abstract, you could say that everyone in the group now has the equivalent of knowledge(history) about that specific thing - but the thing is, the players know it all in their head, over the course of gathering it themselves. Do they have to spend skill points to be able to use that information and put it all together in-game? I'd think the obvious answer is no. It is important to separate what the players know from what the characters know, but if it is something the players learned in-game through playing that character, there is no need for such a separation.

The knowledge skills are for checks for NEW knowledge, never before encountered in-game, but on a related topic. They are not and cannot be meant to simulate everything a character already knows - especially that which was learned while playing. I see going to a library and doing research as in-game learning of knowledge that should not have anything to do with points spent on a knowledge skill, except perhaps as a bonus to the research speed / success.

 

[hong]

Ok, now that's just silly. The whole point of libraries is for the gathering of knowledge that ISN'T just in someone's head. The whole point of a knowledge skill is the ability to come up with an appropriate answer to a related question WITHOUT having to go to the library - the library, as it were, is in your head.

Please go to your library and find me some references on kernel density estimation, in particular with respect to optimal rates of convergence of bandwidth parameters as a function of dimensionality of the data.

Or perhaps the use of fast Fourier transforms to aid computation of estimators.

Or perhaps recursive partitioning ("tree-based") techniques with applications in density estimation and clustering.

Saying that you can't go to the library and look up something specific you need an answer about because you don't have the skill point borders on the ridiculous, IMO.

What skill do you have in computational statistics?

Of course, once we go too far with this, we reach the meta-gaming barrier

Nonsense. You reach the _realism_ barrier, which D&D is ill-equipped to cross.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think it's a very controversial subject. First of all, a piece of information can either be in a library or otherwise not be there, in which case no way to find it. Second, the character must face the task of finding that piece of information. Third, the character who finds the information may or may not have trouble in recognizing it has found the answer.

About the first thing, only the DM chooses or otherwise he can even roll a % if the party wants to check a random town's library. Clearly, the bigger the library the more chance it has to keep the answer, but also it may be more difficult to find, or simply take more time for every check. The second task could be argued that it doesn't depend from being trained in a specific knowledge, but the third instead should depend on it.

In any case, it is simply too complicated to go this way or similar, when after all the DM just has to decide if they find it or not. Unless you really need to flesh out the details of this process (maybe you are desiging a long adventure around the task of finding the 7 lost formulas to open the gates of heaven, which are scattered throughout the worlds' most ancient libraries...), I would suggest you to just go with a Knowledge check with bonus granted by the library, but anyway allowing an untrained Int check if no one has the skill.

 

[Li Shenron]

...whatever...

There are also other Knowledge that are not banned from untrained ones. To find the name of a 10-dwellers village in the middle of China may have an epic DC but doesn't require training in geography; you just need the appropriate source and a lot of time & attention. Same with History for example. Of course, your example could be more similar to Knowledge Arcana and that's ok.

It's not a big deal to let untrained characters try an Int check instead. They can't go as far as they could with the trained skill after all. Unless you let your bonus from Coffee stack

 

[hong]

There are also other Knowledge that are not banned from untrained ones. To find the name of a 10-dwellers village in the middle of China may have an epic DC but doesn't require training in geography; you just need the appropriate source and a lot of time & attention. Same with History for example. Of course, your example could be more similar to Knowledge Arcana and that's ok.

It's not a big deal to let untrained characters try an Int check instead. They can't go as far as they could with the trained skill after all. Unless you let your bonus from Coffee stack

Note that doing research at 2 in the morning also confers a +2 circumstance bonus. These bonuses stack.


Hong "trust me on this as well, people" Ooi

 

[Altalazar]

Please go to your library and find me some references on kernel density estimation, in particular with respect to optimal rates of convergence of bandwidth parameters as a function of dimensionality of the data.

Or perhaps the use of fast Fourier transforms to aid computation of estimators.

Or perhaps recursive partitioning ("tree-based") techniques with applications in density estimation and clustering.

What skill do you have in computational statistics?

You have passed into the realm of active skills - I'd say a skill like that is like Alchemy - you are trying to actively do something, compute something, so research has nothing to do with it and it isn't in the realm of this discussion. You don't make potions by going to the library and looking up how to do it, you use your alchemy skill with skill points. Now you are getting even more ridiculous.

Your silly example has no connection with the real reason someone does research when looking for specific information. If I want to know the location of a fountain in an historic, buried city, or I want to know the names of the elders of that city from a specific time period, THAT is knowledge one can research, that is something you could simply find in a book, assuming you could locate the proper book through research.

 

[hong]

You have passed into the realm of active skills - I'd say a skill like that is like Alchemy - you are trying to actively do something, compute something, so research has nothing to do with it and it isn't in the realm of this discussion.

Now I'm getting the image of all these little men in my computer jumping around, trying to get the numbers to line up correctly.

You don't make potions by going to the library and looking up how to do it, you use your alchemy skill with skill points. Now you are getting even more ridiculous.

D00d, you clearly know nothing about mathematical or computational statistics, so please not to be digging the hole deeper.

Your silly example has no connection with the real reason someone does research when looking for specific information. If I want to know the location of a fountain in an historic, buried city, or I want to know the names of the elders of that city from a specific time period, THAT is knowledge one can research, that is something you could simply find in a book, assuming you could locate the proper book through research.

Have you ever done any academic research?

 

[Altalazar]

Now I'm getting the image of all these little men in my computer jumping around, trying to get the numbers to line up correctly.

D00d, you clearly know nothing about mathematical or computational statistics, so please not to be digging the hole deeper.

Have you ever done any academic research?

Yes. Quite a bit of it. So I know you are being rather ridiculous. We are not talking about people researching information for their PhD in plasma dynamics. We are talking about players looking for some, probably small, piece of information. Tell me - in the Dark Ages, how big would a library be that had every book written on computational statistics? Three? Have you ever done research on elven civilizations using a dark-ages library? No?

Get off your compstat ego horse for a second and step back down to reality.

We are not talking thesis-paper research. We are talking about research to find specific pieces of information. You have yet to give any logical reason why someone ought not to be able to do that without spending skill points.

 

[hong]

Yes. Quite a bit of it.

What field?

So I know you are being rather ridiculous. We are not talking about people researching information for their PhD in plasma dynamics. We are talking about players looking for some, probably small, piece of information.

If it's going to have a significant in-game effect, it's probably not going to be "small" in the sense of "trivial" or "easy to find". "Small" in the sense of "obscure", possibly.

Tell me - in the Dark Ages, how big would a library be that had every book written on computational statistics? Three?

Zero, because computational statistics as a field of study did not exist in the dark ages. Your point is?

Have you ever done research on elven civilizations using a dark-ages library?

Have you?

No?

Thank you.

Get off your compstat ego horse for a second and step back down to reality.

Ah yes, that interesting place where people look for information on elven civilisations in a dark age library.

We are not talking thesis-paper research. We are talking about research to find specific pieces of information. You have yet to give any logical reason why someone ought not to be able to do that without spending skill points.

Because without the requisite level of knowledge, you are not going to have a clue where to start looking. Not until you ask someone for directions, that is, which is basically what I was saying. Of course, most gamers, being guys, will absolutely refuse to ask for directions, this being against the guy code of conduct.

Now then, since you appear to have something against applied research, tell me where to find information on the theory of maximum-likelihood estimators, especially in the context of generalized linear models.