What skills can you take 10 or 20 on?

[Wolfwood2]

Not really. Let's say I have a +4 Open Lock bonus, and there's a DC15 lock.

If I Take 20, the result which opens the lock is not 15; it's 24. Even though I only needed to 'roll' an 11, the Take 20 mechanic assumes that my result was a roll of 20.

If my friend has a Spot of +2, and I have a Hide of +9, I only need to 'roll' a 4 to beat his Take 10 Spot check. But if I Take 20, my 'roll' is a 20, even though I only needed a 4.

-Hyp.

Not really, and I'll tell you why you're objectively wrong.

In the lock example, you know when to stop. It's assumed that in the two minutes, your PC eventually gets a result over the DC of the lock. This results in the lock becoming unlocked, and he can stop.

If we make the assumption that taking 20 will eventually put your roll at a 20 for the Hide check, then why do you need the friend there at all? The assumption is that the friend is what allows you to gauge the results of your check. Without the friend there, if you take 20 you'll eventually get a 20. You'll also eventually get a 1, a 13, a 6, and a 9.

Without someone to judge their results, you don't which hide attempt resulted in the 20, and you don't know when to stop.

But if you need the friend there to judge the results, then he can only judge results to the limits of his skill. He can tell you when you got a 6 or lower on your check, because he successfully spots you. He can't, however, tell the difference between when you roll a 7 and when you roll a 20.

 

[moritheil]

But if you need the friend there to judge the results, then he can only judge results to the limits of his skill. He can tell you when you got a 6 or lower on your check, because he successfully spots you. He can't, however, tell the difference between when you roll a 7 and when you roll a 20.

What if your friend has, say, a +50 to spot checks, and can always spot you no matter how well you hide? It seems to be a great assumption to say that he can distinguish the subtle gradations between your getting the equivalent of a 19 and a 20 on your 'hide roll,' particularly if he himself lacks the hide skill. Is your friend then no help whatsoever?

 

[Hypersmurf]

In the lock example, you know when to stop. It's assumed that in the two minutes, your PC eventually gets a result over the DC of the lock. This results in the lock becoming unlocked, and he can stop.

No, it's assumed that at the end of the 2 minutes, your PC eventually gets a result over the DC of the lock.

Let's say I have a +20 Open Locks bonus, and a DC 20 lock. I could roll a 1 and still open the lock as a full round action. But if I choose, for some reason, to Take 20, it will take me twenty rounds... and I will fail many times before I succeed... and when I do, the result I open the lock with is 40 ('rolled' 20 + bonus of +20).

Even though rolling just once would guarantee opening the lock, I don't get to succeed and stop before the end of the two minutes. And my eventual result is optimal.

Now let's take four locks, with DCs of 20, 30, 40, and 50. I take 20 on each of them.

Lock 1, DC 20: I succeed after two minutes with a result of 40.
Lock 2, DC 30: I succeed after two minutes with a result of 40.
Lock 3, DC 40: I succeed after two minutes with a result of 40.
Lock 4, DC 50: I fail after two minutes with a result of 40.

In the first three cases, Taking 20 does not tell me how difficult the locks were; all I know is that the DC was 40 or less. And that DC is irrelevant to my result - an Open Lock roll of 40.

In the last case, Taking 20 tells me that the DC is higher than 40.

Now I'll try to Hide from my friend, with a Hide check of +20. I Take 20.

If he sees me, I know that my Hide check is 40, and his Spot check is better than 40.
If he doesn't see me, I know that my Hide check is 40, and his Spot check is worse than 40.

Just like the locks - my skill check is fixed at 20 + bonus, so all I can judge based on success or failure is "Was the DC (or opposed roll) higher or lower than 20 + bonus?"

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Is there a penalty associated with a failed Hide check?

No there is not.

Having someone successfully Spot you is not a penalty.

It is like opening a lock if you fail you don't open the lock, but there is no "penalty" associated with it.

The only limitation for taking 20 on a hide check is the time requirement.

 

[Wolfwood2]

No, it's assumed that at the end of the 2 minutes, your PC eventually gets a result over the DC of the lock.

For game purposes, though "really" it could happen at any time during the two minutes. And if seconds are important, it's defintiely better to go ahead and actually roll 20 times, because it likely won't take the full 2 minutes.

Let's say I have a +20 Open Locks bonus, and a DC 20 lock. I could roll a 1 and still open the lock as a full round action. But if I choose, for some reason, to Take 20, it will take me twenty rounds... and I will fail many times before I succeed... and when I do, the result I open the lock with is 40 ('rolled' 20 + bonus of +20).

If your DM is a computer program, I guess it would.

Now let's take four locks, with DCs of 20, 30, 40, and 50. I take 20 on each of them.

Lock 1, DC 20: I succeed after two minutes with a result of 40.
Lock 2, DC 30: I succeed after two minutes with a result of 40.
Lock 3, DC 40: I succeed after two minutes with a result of 40.
Lock 4, DC 50: I fail after two minutes with a result of 40.

You're taking this "take 20' thing way too literally, rather than actually thinking about what it means in terms of game reality.

Now I'll try to Hide from my friend, with a Hide check of +20. I Take 20.

If he sees me, I know that my Hide check is 40, and his Spot check is better than 40.

If you think this is so, we are in such basic disagreement on common sense and how the game should be played that no meeting of minds will probably ever be possible.

Sorry.

 

[moritheil]

You're taking this "take 20' thing way too literally, rather than actually thinking about what it means in terms of game reality.

Wolfwood, meet Hyp. Hyp is an expert at strictly interpreting what the rules actually say. He does not usually claim that common sense agrees with his interpretations, and frequently points out that many literal readings of rules produce highly counterintuitive answers.

In short, for a man doing what he does, it may be impossible to take anything "too literally."

 

[Hypersmurf]

You're taking this "take 20' thing way too literally, rather than actually thinking about what it means in terms of game reality.

According to the Take 20 rules, "just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20".

I'm not sure how just calculating my result as if I had rolled a 20 is taking "just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20" too literally.

-Hyp.

 

[billd91]

Is there a penalty associated with a failed Hide check?

No there is not.

Having someone successfully Spot you is not a penalty.

It is like opening a lock if you fail you don't open the lock, but there is no "penalty" associated with it.

The only limitation for taking 20 on a hide check is the time requirement.

I fail to see how being seen while trying to hide isn't a penalty.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I fail to see how being seen while trying to hide isn't a penalty.

That's like saying there's a penalty associated with a failed Open Lock check (the lock doesn't open!) or a penalty associated with a failed Search check (you didn't find the trap!).

A penalty associated with failure must be something that is worse than simply not attempting the skill check at all.

The result of not attempting a Search check? You don't find the trap.
The result of failing a Search check? You don't find the trap.
There's no penalty for failure.

The result of not attempting a Disable Device check? You don't disable the trap.
The result of failing a Disable Device check? You don't disable the trap... and may set it off.
There's a penalty for failure.

Let's say we have someone trapped on a ledge beside a chasm. If he can jump high enough, he can reach a hanging vine and climb to safety. If he can jump far enough, he can cross the chasm and walk to safety on the far side.

The result of not attempting a vertical Jump check? He remains stuck on the ledge.
The result of failing a vertical Jump check? He remains stuck on the ledge.
There's no penalty for failure.

The result of not attempting a horizontal Jump check? He remains stuck on the ledge.
The result of failing a horizontal Jump check? He falls to a grisly death on the chasm floor.
There's a penalty for failure.

The result of not attempting a Hide check? You're seen.
The result of failing a Hide check? You're seen.
There's no penalty for failure.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Hyp nailed it in his response.

No specific penalty for failing.

And Open locks is a skill that is specifically cited in the taking 20 examples, so is Search for that matter.