What skills can you take 10 or 20 on?

[Artoomis]

On the topic of taking 10/20, does anyone know of a way (feat/item/etc) to allow a character to take 10 on a ride check while in combat?

You could be a high level Rogue and use Skill Mastery.

Other than that, there may be a prestige class or two that grants SKill Mastery.

 

[Transit]

Well, the nature of Take 20 is that the 'best attempt' is always the last one. So it's not like after trying twenty times, you go back to number thirteen; you fail repeatedly, and then egt a result as though you had rolled a 20.

If the rogue took a break each hour, then hid again (opposed by his ally), and the hobgoblin showed up after eight hours, the Spot check would only be opposed by the last Hide check the rogue made, right? The others that came earlier are rendered irrelevant.

Why is it different depending on whether those multiple Hide checks are made over eight hours or two minutes?

-Hyp.

The difference is trying to "Take 20" with a series of opposed rolls and then somehow saving and transfering the best results to a single opposed roll later in the day.

Personally I don't allow Take 20 to be used with Hide. I'll point out that the Modern SRD specifically says that a character can’t Take 20 with Hide. (Since it's all supposed to be part of one big "D20 System" I think that ruling should go for D20 D&D as well.)

But even if you/your DM choose to allow Take 20 with Hide, there's still nothing in the Take 20 rules that says "Take 20 allows an opposed check to be made repeatedly against one friendly opponent, and the best result saved and used later against another entirely different opponent who only gets one chance to beat the check."

Take 20 is meant to skip over boring dice rolling and get right to the check result. It should never CHANGE the result of a check, or change the way a check is made. It should only speed up the time it takes to get the SAME RESULT that "rolling until I succeed" would have achieved, not make it possible to do something that is impossible in normal game play.

The ONLY effect that Take 20 would have on the Rogue when he's practice hiding with his friends is that the Rogue succeeds in hiding from his friends FASTER, without wasting the time that "rolling until success" would take. It shouldn't be used to deny the Hobgoblin nineteen Spot checks that he would have gotten to make in normal play.

Let's reverse the situation. The Hobgoblin wakes up his three Goblins at dawn, and tells them to go Hide all around the encampment. As the goblins scurry into the bushes, the Hobgoblin Takes 20 on Spot, checking out all the good hiding spaces that his goblin allies find to hide in. The Goblins also each Take 20 on Spot, checking out the hiding places the other goblins have found. Soon the Hobgoblin and his friends have all successfully Spotted each other.

So later when the Rogue tries to sneak into their camp, the goblins automatically Spot him with the 20+ Spot checks that they saved from their preparations earlier that morning.

In my opinion, not fair at all.

If I were the Rogue trying to sneak into camp, I'd never let my DM pull this. How can they "pre-spot me" just by practicing spot with their friends? And just because they spotted a Goblin hiding in this bush twenty times this morning, how do they then automatically get a Spot 20 against me when I hide in the same place?

Nothing in normal play allows the results of a check to be shifted from one situation to another, or saved for later. Take 20 doesn't change that. If a castle has the same kind of lock on every door, the Rogue can't Take 20 on open locks with the first lock, then walk over to another door later and instantly open it with a 20.

Lastly, if Take 20 does work with Hide this way, then every monster in every dungeon in the world is currently sitting there with a 20+ Hide check ready to go, just waiting for a dungeon party to come along. And every sentry at every castle is standing around with 20+ already pre-rolled on Spot and Listen.

Just gums up the game too much.

In the end, I think ambushes are much better handled by giving circumstance bonuses to the Hide check. If the Rogue gets there early, carefully prepares his hiding spot, blackens his armor and weapons, smears his face with mud, ties strips of cloth around any equipment that might "jingle" etc. etc. he may end up with a +20 Hide check anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But even if you/your DM choose to allow Take 20 with Hide, there's still nothing in the Take 20 rules that says "Take 20 allows an opposed check to be made repeatedly against one friendly opponent, and the best result saved and used later against another entirely different opponent who only gets one chance to beat the check."

I'm not saving the best result. I'm saving the last result. It's just that it happens that under Take 20 rules, the last result is also the best result.

If I try to Hide five times before the hobgoblin comes along, the first four results are irrelevant, right? If my rolls are 17, 6, 13, 20, and 9... then when the hobgoblin comes along, I'm in hiding to an extent represented by a Hide roll of 9, and that's the roll the hobgoblin opposes with his Spot check. He doesn't get to oppose the other four rolls, any more than someone gets a Sense Motive check today to determine that I was Dominated yesterday... the other four Hide rolls represent situations that no longer exist.

Do you disagree with any of that? That it's the last attempt I made to hide that the hobgoblin has to deal with?

Let's reverse the situation.

But it's not the reverse. Spot lets you see what is there now, not what will be there later.

Hide, on the other hand, sets up a state. When I make a Hide check now, it determines how well hidden I am until something changes that. (Based on your answer earlier - that if the hobgoblin's line of sight is effectively the same as the goblins', he will oppose the Hide check I already made against them.)

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

The thing is, if you allow take 20 with Hide, which is maybe okay, is does open up a bit of a can of worms.

How long can you hide? This now becomes an issue.

I think maybe a few other things suddenly become issues, too.

What about Spot. If I am on guard duty, can I take 20 on spot by looking hard for two minutes? Can I listen carefully for two minutes and take 20 on listening?

Probably the best thing is to simply not allow take 20 for anything that's an opposed roll.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about Spot. If I am on guard duty, can I take 20 on spot by looking hard for two minutes?

I see no reason why not (though it will only be one minute, since you can take twenty move actions in ten rounds).

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

Try Again: Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty.

Taking 20:When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take. Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

If you fail to Spot something, you can attempt it again as a Move action.

As long as you have a minute available and are faced with no threats or distractions - Spot carries no penalties for failure and allows retries - you can Take 20. Why not?

Can I listen carefully for two minutes and take 20 on listening?

Again, I see no reason why not... but you are assumed to fail a lot before eventually calculating a result as though you rolled a 20. So for the first nine-and-a-half rounds, your Listen checks automatically fail. In the latter half of the tenth round, you'll hear really really well... but since nobody else is moving during your turn, it's not very useful for hearing someone sneaking up on you. You have to rely on reactive Listen checks (not an action) to hear someone moving when it isn't your turn.

Taking 20 on a Listen check would be useful for hearing the sound of a distant stream trickling, or an engine running, or something that makes a constant noise. But intermittent sound (like someone sneaking on their own turn, not on yours), you won't pick up...

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A bit of a non-sequituer considering that:

A. The argument made in the passage you quote is that the process of hiding with help is not similar to the process of taking 20 in other situations

B. In the example that statement related to, I explicitly stated that the hider had rolled a 17.

Your statement here begs the question by assuming that you can take 20 on hide. I don't think that the take 20 mechanic is a good match for the hide skill and the rules don't explicitly state that you can take 20 on hide--in fact, they seem to me to imply that you can't. It is therefore beside the point to explain the mechanical result of applying the take 20 rules to hide.

If the hider takes 20, he is as well hidden as possible; his result is calculated as if he rolled a 20.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your statement here begs the question by assuming that you can take 20 on hide.

Certainly. There's no penalty for failure, I'm not threatened or distracted, and there's no prohibition on retries...

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Personally I don't allow Take 20 to be used with Hide. I'll point out that the Modern SRD specifically says that a character can’t Take 20 with Hide. (Since it's all supposed to be part of one big "D20 System" I think that ruling should go for D20 D&D as well.)

It is not wise to use d20 Modern rules as a basis for D&D ones. The games are different.

d20 doesn't mean D&D (well not anymore) is is merely a mechanic in braod sense.

d20 Modern only allows bows 1 single shot a round and yet D&D allows multiple - should we inport those rules into d20 Modern, since they are in the D&D SRD?

d20 Modern still uses the fractional cover rules (from 3.0) instead of the cover or no cover rules from 3.5. Which rules are the "correct" ones to use?

How about the different skills?

If they exist in d20 Modern should they be imported to D&D?

How about if they exist in D&D should they be imported to d20 Modern?

 

[irdeggman]

Why is it more fair to allow foes to take 20 on their Spot checks to find a hiding PC then to allow both to take 20 on their skills?

You can take 20 on a Spot check if you have the time.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Why is it more fair to allow foes to take 20 on their Spot checks to find a hiding PC then to allow both to take 20 on their skills?

You can take 20 on a Spot check if you have the time.

Because foes will only take 20 on Spot checks if they know your PC is there, they just can't tell where. If someone knows that, then it should be extraordinarily diffcult to hide indefinitely.

Assuming you don't have total cover (and if you do, then neither hide nor spot check required) then there's something sticking out to see, and if someone looks long enough they will probably find it.