What skills can you take 10 or 20 on?

[Vegepygmy]

Take 20 can't be used to change the way a Hide check works, somehow giving the Rogue twenty hide checks while the Ogre only gets one spot check.

Exactly right, IMO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Take 20 won't work with Hide because the Ogre gets to make Spot checks to oppose the Hide checks. If the Rogue gets 20 attempts to Hide, then the Ogre gets 20 attempts to Spot. Take 20 can't be used to change the way a Hide check works, somehow giving the Rogue twenty hide checks while the Ogre only gets one spot check.

So what's your take on the earlier example?

The rogue sneaks up close to three goblins, using the partial cover of a bush perhaps, to eavesdrop on their conversation.

A couple of rounds later, a hobgoblin comes out of a tent to speak to the goblins.

How many Hide rolls does the rogue have to make?

One roll, opposed by four Spot checks?
One roll, opposed by three Spot checks, and a second roll opposed by the hobgoblin's check when he arrives?
Three rolls, one opposed by each goblin, and a fourth roll opposed by the hobgoblin?
One roll each round he remains close enough for the goblins to notice him?
Three rolls each round he remains close enough for the goblins to notice him, and one each round the hobgoblin might notice him?

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

So what's your take on the earlier example?

The rogue sneaks up close to three goblins, using the partial cover of a bush perhaps, to eavesdrop on their conversation.

A couple of rounds later, a hobgoblin comes out of a tent to speak to the goblins.

How many Hide rolls does the rogue have to make?

One roll, opposed by four Spot checks?
One roll, opposed by three Spot checks, and a second roll opposed by the hobgoblin's check when he arrives?
Three rolls, one opposed by each goblin, and a fourth roll opposed by the hobgoblin?
One roll each round he remains close enough for the goblins to notice him?
Three rolls each round he remains close enough for the goblins to notice him, and one each round the hobgoblin might notice him?

-Hyp.

Here's how I would play this:

Round One. Hide check, opposed by three spot checks.
Round Two. No rolls - the situation has not changed.
Roudn Three. Hide check (possibly using the check from earlier) opposed by the newly on-the-scene hobgoblin.

After that he can stay hidden, assuming the situation does not change.

A couple of notes:

If he moves, that's a new check all around.
If the goblins and/or hobgoblin get closer, then, technically, the old check should be modified for the new, closer distance.

A lot of this is situational DM judgement.

There are more Hide checks involved, of course - he needs to hide as he approaches. Each round of movement will require a Hide check, but those are easier as they will be from farther away.

Finally, one should not forget the listen checks, too. That should happen any time the rogue moves.

 

[Transit]

So what's your take on the earlier example?

I agree with the way Artoomis has handled it above.

The Rogue makes one Hide check (with movement modifiers) as he creeps up on the Goblins and settles down behind the bush.

Each of the the three Goblins has it's own individual chance to Spot the Rogue, so three Spot checks are made opposing the Rogue's Hide check.

(Some DM judgement might be needed here. If the three Goblins are standing in a circle talking, it's likely at least one of them isn't even looking in the Rogue's direction. So I might only ask for two checks. I might even give the -5 "spotter distracted" modifier if the Goblins really aren't paying attention to anything but each other.)

Once the Rogue has successfully hidden behind the bush, no more Hide checks are needed unless he moves. (Or if for some reason the Goblins move closer to his hiding spot, or something makes them suspicious and they start looking around more carefully.) But if the situation stays the same, no more Hide checks are needed.

Once the Hobgoblin appears, he gets his own chance to spot the Rogue. Like Artoomis says, there's some DM judgement involved.

For instance, If the Hobgoblin came out of a tent that's directly behind the Goblins (the same line of sight) I'd use the already established Hide check. But if the Hobgoblin appeared from another direction, I'd probably have the Rogue make a new Hide check vs. the Hobgoblin's Spot. (The Rogue sees the Hobgoblin emerge from the tent, and has to quickly adjust his position in an attempt to avoid being seen.)

Finally, as the Rogue decides he's heard enough and starts to move away, there would be a final Hide check with movement modifers as he sneaks off. If the three Goblins are all looking at the Hobgoblin (who is screaming at them for talking while on sentry duty) there might only be the distracted Hobgoblin's Spot check to worry about as the Rogue slips away.

And Artoomis is right about the listen checks. If this is all happening on a dark quiet night, Listen v.Move Silently might be much more important to the Rogue than Spot v. Hide.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Once the Hobgoblin appears, he gets his own chance to spot the Rogue. Like Artoomis says, there's some DM judgement involved.

For instance, If the Hobgoblin came out of a tent that's directly behind the Goblins (the same line of sight) I'd use the already established Hide check.

So how is it different to the earlier-proposed technique?

If a newcomer hobgoblin (with the same line-of-sight caveat) opposes the Hide check previously established in a roll opposed by the goblins, where's the inconsistency in allowing someone setting up for an ambush to use a Hide check established by opposing an ally?

-Hyp.

 

[ThirdWizard]

One roll, opposed by three Spot checks, and a second roll opposed by the hobgoblin's check when he arrives?

That's the one I'd go for.

Generally, when setting up an ambush in our games, PCs go for enough cover where they don't have to make Hide checks and use one look out who can see the road (or whatever) who has a high Hide skill, with circumstance modifiers for things like camo or half burying himself.

 

[Artoomis]

...If a newcomer hobgoblin (with the same line-of-sight caveat) opposes the Hide check previously established in a roll opposed by the goblins, where's the inconsistency in allowing someone setting up for an ambush to use a Hide check established by opposing an ally?

-Hyp.

Seems reasonable to me - but then I earlier stated I thought a "take 20" was okay provided it was done ahead of time to, for example, prep an ambush.

 

[Transit]

So how is it different to the earlier-proposed technique?

If a newcomer hobgoblin (with the same line-of-sight caveat) opposes the Hide check previously established in a roll opposed by the goblins, where's the inconsistency in allowing someone setting up for an ambush to use a Hide check established by opposing an ally?

-Hyp.

If the Rogue wanted to choose a hiding spot, roll his ONE hide check, and then hang out all day in that spot waiting for the Hobgoblin to come along and make ONE spot check, there's no inconsistency.

The inconsistency comes from trying to use "Take 20" with an ally to get twenty "practice" hide checks and then somehow keep the best attempt to later use against the Hobgoblin who only gets one Spot check.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The inconsistency comes from trying to use "Take 20" with an ally to get twenty "practice" hide checks and then somehow keep the best attempt to later use against the Hobgoblin who only gets one Spot check.

Well, the nature of Take 20 is that the 'best attempt' is always the last one. So it's not like after trying twenty times, you go back to number thirteen; you fail repeatedly, and then egt a result as though you had rolled a 20.

If the rogue took a break each hour, then hid again (opposed by his ally), and the hobgoblin showed up after eight hours, the Spot check would only be opposed by the last Hide check the rogue made, right? The others that came earlier are rendered irrelevant.

Why is it different depending on whether those multiple Hide checks are made over eight hours or two minutes?

-Hyp.

 

[gabrion]

On the topic of taking 10/20, does anyone know of a way (feat/item/etc) to allow a character to take 10 on a ride check while in combat?