What Spells give the DM the most headache...

[Gizzard]

Hmmm, interesting. I've run a few 3.5E sessions with 12th level characters so far and while Wind Walk and Teleport have been very important, they haven't dominated play. Scry has been mostly ignored for the reason that fourthmensch mentioned: a decent Will save negates it (and the opponent knows he's been (likely been) Scry'd when he makes his save).

The drawback of Wind Walk has been the 5 rounds necessary to re- and de-vaporize; it's a tidy way of moving distance or moving through small openings, but it sure is nasty to have to spend tons of time to change form. (Rules: Who can dismiss a Wind Walk? Any recipient or only the caster?) Also, does anyone let their players move at 60mph inside a dungeon? I house-ruled that it's hard to move too fast in the dark -- trying to move at 60mph with only 60' of Darkvision to guide you is like trying to drive a car full speed down a narrow country road with only one dim headlight.

The players have been extremely cautious with Teleport so far, only using it to escape from combat gone bad.

 

[William Ronald]

Any wise NPC would have access to some lead, and have some specially prepared anti-scrying rooms. Lead isn't that expensive, and any powerful noble would probably make sure to have some.

As per the SRD: "Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked."

I've seen Miracle and Wish used, and generally they're not as powerful as they might at first seem. Many high-level spells, like Maze or Imprisonment, seem much nastier than the work out in practical use to be.

One spell that sits unused, like the Crazy uncle sitting at the table that everyone tries to ignore, is Mord's Disjunction. I haven't used it, yet, and neither have the players...until the first time I actually use it, and then all bets are off, I suspect. Not that it matters too much to the DM, who has far less to lose.

Most of the spells I don't like or denied have come from Defenders of the Faith or Masters of the Wild. For example, I kicked Miasma to the curb the first time I saw it. My players vetoed Mandragora after the druid tried to cast it...and was the beginning of the institution of a player spell-committee.

I seem to recall that there was a potion in the 1st Edition book, Manual of the Planes, which could be used in the construction of castles and similar structures to prevent teleleportation and access to planar travel. I believe the cost was roughly 1 percent to 5 percent of the cost of the structure. It would not be too hard to have a similar item, spell or ritual in a game.

Also, a little misdirection can go a long way to ruin divination spells. A simple trick is to have a villain operate under an alias -- that does not exist. A rather more interesting trick is to have a spell or item that redirects divinations to a different target. (This can be amusing if a foe of the PCs arranges to have an item to redirect divinations hidden among their gear or among the possessions of their henchmen or servants. Hmml, maybe that is why everyone thought the butler did it? )

I have had little problem with teleport and divination spells. As a player, I have found that some creativity helps in divination and that travelling to an unknown location can be dangerous. (Particularly if the BBEG's allies are just out of scrying range.) However, sometimes the only way to find out information on someone is to snoop about. Also, teleport spells can have unfortunate results. Teleport without error is a 7th level spell.

As for Mordenkainen's Disjunction, I have had PCs use it -- and other players grumble if they did not pay attention to were they placed their characters. (In two cases, it was necessary to use it to weaken truly horrible adversaries -- and one or two PCs were not paying attention. I ended up having one character replacing some items for a player --- and another cast the spell to draw attention away from his allies, sacrificing his own life so that his allies could live.) It can be an effective spell, but it requires some coordination from the players.

 

[Elemental]

Scrying - I hated having to insert Magical Items that barely worked in order to deal with this spell in 3.0. Thank god 3.5 got rid of that stupid skill. The DC's were usually set so low that low level wizards could easily make the DC's. Now its easy to foil a simple Scry + Teleport Nukefest since either the Villains usually have pretty good Will sazes or the smart ones have Mind Blank cast most of the time.

There are lower-level ways to foil scrying over a relatively large area--Tome & Blood has a 5th-level spell that does just that.

 

[Jolly Giant]

This smacks of the very "DM-elitism" that I was referring to. The designers should not structure the game based on the assumption that every DM out there is up to par, having dilligently taken his night classes in order to qualify for his DM'ing license. To design a system without a regard to fault tolerance because you place all responsibility for smooth operation on the thousands of end-users' shoulders is an impractical, ill-considered design strategy.

Rather, they should structure D&D under the much more realistic assumption that there are quite a few folks who wind up wearing the DM mantle that don't have a full grasp on how the nature of the game changes over time, and are not intimately familiar with how every high-power spell works (along with every feat, magic item, class ability, and so forth) and furthermore that a good many of these less-than-ideal DM's can actually be overwhelmed by all of the responsibilities they have to deal with, along with all of the curveballs the players can throw at them. Bearing that assumption in mind during the design process will keep D&D alive and healthy, as opposed to a closed-system mentality that dismisses overwhelmed DM's as being unworthy of their exalted position. It's the overwhelmed DM's that the designers should spend their time looking out for.

Sounds like you got railroaded into doing a job you weren't ready for Felon... Never a pleasent experience! :\ I think you need to talk to your players about this, see if you can get them to see your things from your point of view. Consider if you should simply end your current campaign and start a new one?

DMing a high-level campaign is considerably more difficult job than DMing a low-level campaign, simply because there are so many more factors to consider and so many more rules you need to know. I don't think it's fair to blame the designers for this, though. This is simply the way things have to be. Characters (both PCs, NPCs and monsters!) gain more and more powers and options as they gain more levels; so the higher level the PCs are, the more options and powers are at their disposal. IMHO, it would be a very strange and boring game-system if this wasn't true...

Gaining new abilties and powers, and thus being able to take on new and greater challenges, is part of what keeps the game entertaining. As long as the DM can come up with new challenges suited for those new powers, that is...

Unfortunately, all these powers means there are awful lot the DM needs to keep in mind when planing campaigns and encounters. He doesn't need to know every single detail about every little thing, but he does need to at least be aware of what options PCs have at their disposal and be familiar with how they work. Unfortunately, that means doing a lot of reading...

If your time-schedule doesn't allow for this, or you just don't want the hazzle, my only advice to you is to stick to DMing lower level campaigns.

I honestly hope I didn't offend you (or anyone else) with that last sentence, Felon. It was only meant as friendly advice. On the other hand, I hope you do take the time and make the effort to keep your campaign going forward. Once you start getting in to high-level play, it's like playing a whole new game! Not that I don't like low-level D&D, but I also like to try something different once in a while...

 

[Fester]

Okay, not really the answer to the question, but...

3.5 Ray of Enfeeblement can do scary things in melee combat. A real bane of fighter-types. In the hands of a sorcerer it can be lethal...

 

[Felon]

Sounds like you got railroaded into doing a job you weren't ready for Felon... Never a pleasent experience! :\ I think you need to talk to your players about this, see if you can get them to see your things from your point of view. Consider if you should simply end your current campaign and start a new one?

The comment regarding overwhelmed DM's wasn't self-referential. But I've certainly been witness to it. The DM's trying to focus on storytelling and dramatic characterization--i.e. the things he enjoys--he's just not as much of a rules expert as other players. It happens all the time.

DMing a high-level campaign is considerably more difficult job than DMing a low-level campaign, simply because there are so many more factors to consider and so many more rules you need to know. I don't think it's fair to blame the designers for this, though.

I'm not really concerned with assigning blame myself, as it's a rather pointless exercise. Rather, now and then I feel compelled to respond to remarks to the effect that "it doesn't how problematic or poorly-designed an aspect of the game, it is always the DM's fault for not spotting the potential problem from 1000 miles away and dealing with it perfectly". In other words, it's the DM's fault for not meeting some lofty ideal what constitutes a "good" DM.

That stance is not only irrational, but it's counter-productive. The attitude that DMing is some sport of the elected, and that all those inadequate, imperfect people that aren't worthy to be DM's should resign from their posts essentially amounts to far fewer people playing D&D, and that's not good for anybody.

Forget blame, let's talk responsibility. It is much more rational to acknowledge the game designers have some responsibility for making sure that DM'ing D&D isn't made insanely difficult or just flat-out boring by spells, magic items, etc. that suck the challenge out of the game, and many high-level effects do just that.

This is simply the way things have to be. Characters (both PCs, NPCs and monsters!) gain more and more powers and options as they gain more levels; so the higher level the PCs are, the more options and powers are at their disposal. IMHO, it would be a very strange and boring game-system if this wasn't true...

Granted, characters should improve, but I'm not seeing why things have to be as over-the-top as they currently are. For instance, I have yet to hear anyone explain why should Climb, Jump, Swim, Survival, Sense Motive, or Gather Information checks become displaced by magical modes of travel and information gathering? That doesn't make a player who spent skill ranks on them feel more powerful. There is no reason that aspects of fantasy such as arduous treks and mystery investigation--basically anything other than combat--should be made so easy that they're virtually obsolete concepts. True, there are a few ways to preserve those aspects at high levels, but for the most part involve utilizing abjuration-type magic, not resourcefulness. That makes them predictable and lame. And I haven't even gotten into how resurrection spells diminish challenge. Should I really have to?

Do you have the epic-level handbook? If so, check out their little mini-adventures that were designed to show off the awe and wonder of epic-level play. They basically boil down to casting a series of spells to quickly gather all of the vital info and whisk the players from one fight to another. Dull stuff.

 

[hong]

This smacks of the very "DM-elitism" that I was referring to. The designers should not structure the game based on the assumption that every DM out there is up to par, having dilligently taken his night classes in order to qualify for his DM'ing license. To design a system without a regard to fault tolerance because you place all responsibility for smooth operation on the thousands of end-users' shoulders is an impractical, ill-considered design strategy.

If so, you need to take up your grievances with Col_Pladoh. Just about all the spells and effects mentioned so far (fly, teleport, scrying, polymorph, resurrect, instakills) have been part of AD&D since 1978. Heck, it was pretty much assumed that a high-level M-U back then would be unto a demigod.

 

[Hypersmurf]

On the side note of the Ravid, I found this little tidbit interesting:Since Alter Self doesn't bestow (Su) abilities, a native outsider that changes into one will basically fall to the ground and flop around, only able to take a single action each round.

Nah, he'll be fine, according to the ability as written.

He's not a rast who loses this ability; he's a ravid who loses this ability.

-Hyp.

 

[JimAde]

Nah, he'll be fine, according to the ability as written.

He's not a rast who loses this ability; he's a ravid who loses this ability.

-Hyp.

It's funny. That typo is in both the SRD and the PHB (at least the one I have). The joys of cut-and-paste writing

 

[jasamcarl]

The comment regarding overwhelmed DM's wasn't self-referential. But I've certainly been witness to it. The DM's trying to focus on storytelling and dramatic characterization--i.e. the things he enjoys--he's just not as much of a rules expert as other players. It happens all the time.



I'm not really concerned with assigning blame myself, as it's a rather pointless exercise. Rather, now and then I feel compelled to respond to remarks to the effect that "it doesn't how problematic or poorly-designed an aspect of the game, it is always the DM's fault for not spotting the potential problem from 1000 miles away and dealing with it perfectly". In other words, it's the DM's fault for not meeting some lofty ideal what constitutes a "good" DM.

That stance is not only irrational, but it's counter-productive. The attitude that DMing is some sport of the elected, and that all those inadequate, imperfect people that aren't worthy to be DM's should resign from their posts essentially amounts to far fewer people playing D&D, and that's not good for anybody.

Forget blame, let's talk responsibility. It is much more rational to acknowledge the game designers have some responsibility for making sure that DM'ing D&D isn't made insanely difficult or just flat-out boring by spells, magic items, etc. that suck the challenge out of the game, and many high-level effects do just that.



Granted, characters should improve, but I'm not seeing why things have to be as over-the-top as they currently are. For instance, I have yet to hear anyone explain why should Climb, Jump, Swim, Survival, Sense Motive, or Gather Information checks become displaced by magical modes of travel and information gathering? That doesn't make a player who spent skill ranks on them feel more powerful. There is no reason that aspects of fantasy such as arduous treks and mystery investigation--basically anything other than combat--should be made so easy that they're virtually obsolete concepts. True, there are a few ways to preserve those aspects at high levels, but for the most part involve utilizing abjuration-type magic, not resourcefulness. That makes them predictable and lame. And I haven't even gotten into how resurrection spells diminish challenge. Should I really have to?

Do you have the epic-level handbook? If so, check out their little mini-adventures that were designed to show off the awe and wonder of epic-level play. They basically boil down to casting a series of spells to quickly gather all of the vital info and whisk the players from one fight to another. Dull stuff.

I'd be curious to know what you mean by 'challenge'. If you are referring to combat challenge, you would be touching on a reasonable subject.

If you are referring to the type of stupid dm railroading and arbitrary 'mystery' that are easily pulled off at low-levels, then i think that you missed the target; there is rarely if any challenge in those scenarios because its always the dm who determines how things are resolved, either through whim or his peculiar interpretation of the pc's actions and their ramifications.

It isn't that difficult to come up with plothooks that don't reveal themselves immediatly even at high levels. The first step is to require the use of all those divinations teleports and the like. The second is to string the information that can be gleaned into a coherent plot. The same 'mystery' ensues and nothing is really lost, though the dm generally has to be more creative and 'think bigger'. There is inherently fudging even in this, but atleast the pcs are given some tools to effect the plot and aren't reduced to passive morons.