What stats control

[Goolpsy]

Ok i'll explain myself more if you want.. ANY campaign i run i at least 10 levels... sometimes i let the characters gain levels faster than others..
If the system only works for the created Char for 3 levels... my 10 levels Campaign wont work. Cause they either suck in the beginning or suck in the end.... or we have to remake the chars every 3 levels... = waste of too much time.

Then think about those 50 level campaigns..?
Im not up to offend anyone in any way, its just... the system have to support a great deal of levels.. unless you make "half level benefits" of some kind, and make 3 levels seem like 20..
The idea is new though.. and does need some adjustment... it mgiht even work out.
This one just dosn't cut it in the long run

Good enought?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I still don't understand how these rules would make a character useless after 3 levels. Or be too weak at the beginning, and then strong 3 levels later, and then weak 3 levels after that.

It seems to me their strengths would be more balanced overall.

In the example I describe, it is certainly possible for the Int 16 wizard to get to 20th level. He'll have a 21 intelligence from level ups and will be able to cast 9th level spells. He has a better save DC than this 23 intelligence friend, and has all the other benefits of a 14 wisdom instead of an 8. His friend will have an extra 6th level spell, and 23 more skill points, so he's not too badly off either.

Which of these is "useless"?

 

[Storyteller01]

I am going to attempt to destroy your arguments...

I'll make one attempt at rebuttal, lest mine debate genes kick in...

Well here is where this argument falls apart: Fortitude has nothing to do with endurance! It is the ability to resist effects such as poison, disease, form altering magics and death magics. Now how could strength be important to that? Well, you are more dense, you are likely larger do to your strength.

Thing is, density is rarly a consideration when magic is concerned. Take Polymorph Any Object, for example. Switching the object to another object of a diffent size/copostion doesn't effect the save. Some objects don't get a save at all...

A large number of weight lifters/power lifters suffer from cardiovasulcar problems, heart disease, liver problems, lowered immune system, etc brought on by stress from the workout and dietary indifficiency (high protien/low carb diets KILL the liver...). Those that work out with health (Con) in mind don't usually suffer in this manner unless they're doing something REALLY wrong.

As for poisons, necrotic vemons (like the recluse spider) isn't slowed down much by greater muscle mass. As for other poisons, yes muscle mass can slow down the process. Thing is, so can being overweight. It's a matter of an increases distance to target via the expanded circulatory system, not muscle tissue fighting the poison.

And as any doctor can tell you, increased muscle mass doesn't decrease your odds of getting a disease. Exercise; yes, Muscle tissue by itself; no.

Well, the ability to think fast is tantamount to the ability of quickness. For instance, basketball players who dont have the mental game are not as good or as quick as those who are quick of wit and thought. Also, Reflexes are not just a matter of reacting, it is a matter of reacting well. An example, Hum Dumb the fighter is fast, likely the most dexterous fighter ever. One problem, he is not the sharpest tool in the shed. He is out one day in a sparse forest. A wizard flys by and fireballs him, in a split second he jumps to dodge the blast very quickly. Only problem was since he is not very bright he dodged behind a bush instead of the solid oak tree, he failed his save and took full damage. Ok, so a smart person instinctively knows more about where they should dodge.

Not so! Look at boxers. Their training allows them to dodge blows and roll with punches. While boxers are by no means stupid, I doubt the world champion is a Harvard graduate.

Speaking as a fairly bright individual trained with other bright individuals in martials arts, book learning does not equal instinct. Matter of fact, it's usually the opposite! Those taught to think theorically are rarely taught to think quickly. It's a rare individual who can do both (I believe there's a feat for it).

If anything, if you want to run the 'instinct' angle, I'd use Wis instead of Int. Many of your mainly intuitive skills (Listen, Spot, Survival, etc) operate on this stat. Then again, that would step on the Monk's toes...

Oh, this one is easy. I assume you agree that wisdom is aplicable. Force of personality or charisma is also. Force of personality in my view is the ability to attach yourself to a view and argue its points without concedeing its point, even if only a minor point. Oh, and to do it with style so as to leave the opposed convinced and not bitter. Is it easier or harder to convince a politician who is rooted in their beliefs to switch their veiws to an opposing side? Or is it easier to have someone who does not have a strong force of personality to switch sides on an argument? So, when a Dominate Person spell is cast and they get a save to break it by them being forced to do something contrary to their views. The person with higher charisma would have a better chance to break it than someone with low charisma.

When your right, your right. I can't think of an arguement for this one.

My rebuttal would have been more thorough, but time is a factor. Until next time, good day and good gaming.

 

[Bront]

Just a thought, if you're going to boost everyone elses saves, why decrease all the spell save DCs? Why not simply ad the extra stat in there for them too?

 

[Sadrik]

You know you are absolutly right. When I first typed it up I wrote it up wrong. Now by writing wrong early it makes little sense.

You would use the 5 + stat + stat if the game used normal saves (ie only 1 stat bonus) in the two stat bonus variant it would need to be normal (10 + stat + stat)

I will go edit the initial post. Because that is not clear. Sorry for the confusion.

Sadrik

 

[Sadrik]

Cheiromancer,
I think that the bonus spells for a high stat should only come from one of the stats not both. For instance a wizard with a 16 int and a 12 wis would have a base DC of 14 (10 + 3 + 1) and because of his 16 int would have a bonus first, second and third level spell.

This also shores up the problem with having a Wizard really high wisdom and average intelligence so they can boost their will save and all the similar problems that could occur. Basically wisdom becoms important but not too important not like intelligence which gives them bonus spells.

But, I suppose though if you wanted to give a big boost early on to casters and give them more bonus spells for stats, it could work. But I didnt envision this thing working like that.

Sadrik

 

[Sadrik]

And the litigators hat goes on...

And as any doctor can tell you, increased muscle mass doesn't decrease your odds of getting a disease. Exercise; yes, Muscle tissue by itself; no.

Ah, herein lies the weakness of your strongest argument , fitness, is not necisarily constitution. Fitness as a describing term, I think, can be applied to both strength and constitution. So, if we were to assume that and that a fit person is less aflicted with disease, then strength could be a possible factor apllied toward fortitude. Remember, by adding the second stat it is not saying that constitution or strength is the sole beneficiary but only a possible one.

Speaking as a fairly bright individual trained with other bright individuals in martials arts, book learning does not equal instinct. Matter of fact, it's usually the opposite! Those taught to think theorically are rarely taught to think quickly. It's a rare individual who can do both (I believe there's a feat for it).

Agreed, but only if intelligence is only viewed as knowledge. What about the speed chess player, who can think fast and calculate complex pattern in seconds. There is a certain amount of genetic where-with-all that comes with being intelligent, alacrity of thought you might say. That is what I am talking about, not just "book smarts." Truthfully, anybody can be "book" smart it is simply training. A smart person however makes learning easier and quicker and hense can be "book smart" faster. Now, using that distinction alacrity of thought versus knowledge it could easily be attributed to intelligence. Here is another example, a bug, very very fast, but very very dumb.

Yes it has

Sadrik

 

[Cheiromancer]

Cheiromancer,
I think that the bonus spells for a high stat should only come from one of the stats not both. For instance a wizard with a 16 int and a 12 wis would have a base DC of 14 (10 + 3 + 1) and because of his 16 int would have a bonus first, second and third level spell.

I must have expressed myself poorly. I did not mean to suggest that a wizard's bonus spells would be governed by anything other than intelligence. I was counting the level up bonuses (+1 to an ability score at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20) in my examples, though.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

Im with storyteller
constitution is how far you can push yourself
strength is how much you can lift
being able to lift things doesnt affect your ability to fight off illness
Also The phisical attributes are imo just the physical apllications of the combined mental ones
Constitution is wisdom and charisma as force of will/personality
Dexterity is wisdom and intellegence as instinct and quick thinking
Strength is wisdom and intelligence and innate capability as knowing how to use the innate capabillity

 

[Afrodyte]

This thread is going to be about:

Variants on what people think the stats can control, for instance it was mentioned that wisdom should control the reflex save.

I think that the stats should be a bit more intuitive and more well-distributed. Now, I won't try to shoehorn everything to make it fit, but there are things out there that could be reasonably placed more evenly across the attributes. For instance, the base saves.

Linking the Fortitude save to Constitution works because Fortitude measures your physical resilience. However, the Reflex and Will saves have a bit more leeway in what traits help best.

Let's start with the Will save first since that's the one that stands out the most. First of all, Wisdom itself is defined in some pretty strange terms. The PHB defines Wisdom as "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition." Now, common sense, perception, and intuition are things that I could associate with each other, but willpower seems like it doesn't fit. How does "being in tune with one's surroundings" fit in with being willful? Applying Occam's razor to the question, the answer to that is: it doesn't. However, there is one attribute where willpower makes sense: Charisma. After all, this is the trait that is based on "force of personality" and "personal magnetism," things which I would associate with willful people. Consider the historical and literary examples of people who'd have a high Charisma. Did any of them come across as particularly weak-willed (and I mean this in general, not in a specific instance such as alcoholism)? The best perk to this is that it takes Charisma out of dump stat status, especially for classes with poor base Will saves.

Now for the Reflex save. To me, the Reflex save is more about instinct and a sixth sense for danger than moving quickly. Therefore, Wisdom is the most appropriate attribute to base it on. For instance, I am not particularly coordinated (Dexterity), but in many cases when I dropped something, I was able to catch it before it fell very far. It is not something I analyze and think about (Intelligence), but it registers on an instinctive/intuitive level (Wisdom), and I am able to react appropriately. Oftentimes I am left wondering how in the world I did it. Another ironic example: Jack Burton. He is strong and tough, not especially agile, but he does have a good amount of common sense and perceptiveness. In game terms, I'd wager his Wisdom is higher than his Dexterity. "It's all in the reflexes," after all. Besides making more sense this way, it would make Wisdom a bit more important for poor-Reflex classes. In addition, it makes Dexterity more balanced with the other attributes, and less of the uber-stat.

As for spell DCs, I'd rather link those to the power of the caster as opposed to the power of the spell. Having the DCs start at something like 5 + caster level + casting attribute modifier allows low-level spells to continue to be a threat even at high levels. Spellcasters would then have a reason to use their low-level spell slots on minor threats and their high-level spell slots on major threats. Granted, this could lead to a DC 30+ charm person being used on a dragon or something, but I'm cool with it since that sort of thing has precedent in myths and fantasy literature. At the very least, bards would be able to do something cool like lull a dragon to sleep by playing a song. In addition, feats like Spell Focus become a bit more useful.