What the heck about the Realms is Forgotten anyway?

[Alzrius]

Alzrius, when was Mielikki slain? (Mielikki is of Finnish origin.)

Also, I recall no reference to Persian deities in any FR product.

D'oh! I forgot about her. Iirc, Loviatar is Finnish also (but not Ilmater, since he and the female Finnish deity Ilmatar are different gods with very similar names).

The deity I was thinking of is Kiputytto. A demigoddess of disease, Talona slew her in a battle over identical portfolios.

 

[Oaken25]

Loviatar is the other finnish one. Gods how can any one not recall her and her S&M fetish look.

 

[William Ronald]

Alzrius, don't feel bad. Loviatar is also from the Finnish mythos. (So, I forgot one as well.)

The correct spelling, I believe is Kiputytto. She is a relatively minor figure, eclipsed by Loviatar, Tuoni (lord of the Dead), and Tuonetar (Queen of the Dead, also a goddess of disease).

The gates to Earth does help explain the similarity of some names. (I am afraid to look up Charles Oliver O'Kane (former mayor of Ravens Bluff) in the Chicago telephone directory.
)

 

[Alzrius]

I wouldn't have made those mistakes if I only had all my books with me.

But of all the Finnish gods, only three have made the connection to Realmspace (and only two survived so far).

The gate to Earth thing was the old old mention for why all those "Earth pantheon" gods were there, but later on in 1E (and 2E and 3E) they just said that those gods were large, famous pantheons, and lots of other game worlds (since officially myriad other worlds exist out there) worship them, so they didn't come from Earth per se, but from some other world where they're actively worshipped.

 

[William Ronald]

Alzrius, a good point. Of course, some of those myriad worlds may have similar languages to Earth. (Which would explain some of the names in the Realms.)

 

[jester47]

I think the Untheric Pantheon was Persian, or middle eastern or somthing, as that is the pantheon of Tiamat.

Googleing......

This is explained in FR 10. Ao invited the Egyptian and Babylonain/Persian pantheons to manifest in the Realms to help with the Imaskari, and a few of each panteon took the call.

Also, Uthgar is from the Rus, (those vikings that eventually became the Russians.) Tyr is a viking god also.

As for gods having sway over many world, well yeah, but I think what we are talking about here is why the Realms are Forgotten. The consensus is that there were once portals here from there, but they got mostly shut down, unless your name is Elminster. The bit about these portals getting shut down has largely been covered by the Imaskari slaving operations, I am sure that there are others that were not included in theis conflict. So looking at it in the "presence of worshipers gives gods power" that Ao decreed even though he did not make that decree until the time of troubles, it would indicate that the populations of Unther and Mulhorand are Largly of Egyptian and Persian/Babylonain stock. However this can be disputed, Ao may have just picked those gods to stand up for those people. Still looking at what Grodog said, I would have to go with the first reason:

Imaskari make a portal to earth, capture a bunch of earthlings and take them to the realms and make them slaves. These earthlings were largely Egytians and Persians. Thus Ao invites those pantheons into the realms to stick up for their followers.

It lit crit mode, most of the FR gods are old gods from RL. Which I think is pretty neat and runs with the Dieties and Demigods concept of Dungeons and Dragons gods.

Grodog, we are both right. You got the reason it was originally called the forgotten realms, I have got the reason that your reason has evolved into.

Aaron.

 

[I'm A Banana]

An Interpretation of Sigil's Point

WotC Board Member 1: "Hey, man, I was just browsing EN World, and I came accross this thread -- never really thought about it before...why *are* the Realms forgotten?"

WotC Board Member 2: "Uhm....er..." (looks at the string around his finger) "durr.....uh.....dammit! I can't remember. Someone get Greenwood on the phone!"

 

[Angcuru]

I like the idea that they were once connected with our own world. If that were true in actuality, I'd gear up and go portal-hunting!

 

[Alzrius]

I think the Untheric Pantheon was Persian, or middle eastern or somthing, as that is the pantheon of Tiamat.

Googleing......

This is explained in FR 10. Ao invited the Egyptian and Babylonain/Persian pantheons to manifest in the Realms to help with the Imaskari, and a few of each panteon took the call.

As I recall, they were Egyptian and Sumerian, since a Sumerian deity was the one who helped them make the journey to Realmspace.

Also, Uthgar is from the Rus, (those vikings that eventually became the Russians.) Tyr is a viking god also.

Tyr is from the Norse pantheon yes, but Uthgar, while irl may have been a historical god, has not been mentioned in any other product. Thus, in the D&D cosmology, he didn't come from, nor is a part of, another pantheon.

As for gods having sway over many world, well yeah, but I think what we are talking about here is why the Realms are Forgotten.

Yes, but they are separate issues. The idea that gods from "Earth pantheons" are worshipped in the Realms due to those old portals is an idea that has long since been decanonized. Those gods being there is now entirely separate from the old "once connected to Earth" bit (which itself hangs somewhat by a thread).

The consensus is that there were once portals here from there, but they got mostly shut down, unless your name is Elminster.

Actually, they weren't shut down, they were, as I understand, just lost over time as they were forgotten and their magic faded. And other arch-mages can still use the ones still around also. The Simbul has been to Earth, we know (Ed Greenwood once saw her pull a nasty trick on Dalamar from Krynn). The real Khelben the younger lives on Oerth, the world of Greyhawk, while his father poses as him on Faerun.

The bit about these portals getting shut down has largely been covered by the Imaskari slaving operations, I am sure that there are others that were not included in theis conflict.

That may have been what it was, but it's long since been ret-conned. The way it works now is that the Imaskari took slaves from some world, we don't know where, and closed the portals they used, then set up a ban to make sure those gods couldn't get through. They didn't count on Ao allowing their incarnations in after physically crossing the distance. That barrier finally was lifted after the Time of Troubles. Earth has nothing to do with it.

So looking at it in the "presence of worshipers gives gods power" that Ao decreed even though he did not make that decree until the time of troubles, it would indicate that the populations of Unther and Mulhorand are Largly of Egyptian and Persian/Babylonain stock.

That decree, in and of itself, doesn't indicate anything about the Untheric and Mulhorandi peoples being Egytpian and Sumerian. It just says that gods are at a strength proportionate to their worship. At any rate, calling them "Egyptian" or "Sumerian" doesn't mean they're from Earth, thats just us applying a meta-game term so the players around the table can better understand the culture they're dealing with.

However this can be disputed, Ao may have just picked those gods to stand up for those people.

No, we know how it worked. Ao went to those gods and told them that he would let them in Realmspace if they could physicall get there, but that they would still be cut off from their essence in the Outer Planes.

Still looking at what Grodog said, I would have to go with the first reason:

Imaskari make a portal to earth, capture a bunch of earthlings and take them to the realms and make them slaves. These earthlings were largely Egytians and Persians. Thus Ao invites those pantheons into the realms to stick up for their followers.

Nothing says they went to Earth. As I said, the presence of those particular gods means nothing in regards to this.

It lit crit mode, most of the FR gods are old gods from RL. Which I think is pretty neat and runs with the Dieties and Demigods concept of Dungeons and Dragons gods.

It is neat, but it hardly "runs" with the old Deities & Demigods concept of D&D gods (which I'm interpreting that statement to mean that they're extremely true to myth and legend), since it referenced things like the Great Wheel, and the Cthulhu mythos!

 

[jester47]

You make several points. If you see the word "whatever" it means you are reading too much into my point and going beyond it (thus missing it).

Point 1: Agreed. Sumer, Babalon, Persia; close enough ;-)

Point 2: He was an IRL god. Whatever.

Point 3: but it was canon at one point. Whatever.

point 4: Forgotten and magic faded = shutdown, Elminster = Archmage. Whatever.

point 5: I am only going off of about 5 paragraphs in the FRCS. Who cares how it worked, Imaskari had portals, brought people over, portals gonenow. Maybe there were more, maybe not. See I am not actually disputing anything you are saying here. So... whatever.

Point 6: I killed my own point before you did. Time of troubles = recent, Imaskari = ancient. Gods were free to exist without worshipers before Ao decree. Therefore its not really a point, its what is called a "possibility" aka a valid way of looking at it even though there is nothing to back it up. Think... Whatever.

point 7: This is your reply to me saying "I am probably wrong" b/c I contradicted myself above. If the people had nothing to do with the gods in thefirst place then Ao just picked them randomly for the rescue mission. But then we have to ask why he didn't just get a local to take care of it. Hrm. think think think caps lock for this one WHATEVER

point 8: Hey its just a possibility that can make sense should a DM decide to make the place they went Earth. Thats all I am saying.

point 9: you are misinterpreting the statement. see below. since you caught it, you dont get a whatever.


Most of what I say still holds because you are talking about somthing completely different than what I am talking about. You are talking about realms canon. I am talking about mythological influence and placement and the evolution of a story over several rewritings and two decades of development.

Now what I meant about being true to the original Dieties and Demigods book was that often DMs in those days just mixed all the pantheons they could get their hands on. Also it shows that Ed was reading Dieties and Demigods when he was selecting what gods to put in the realms and that is why many of the gods in FR can also be found in RL.

I could care less in game where Uthgar came from. All I am saying is that he came from the Rus pantheon and that idea got into the head of whoever put him in the realms.

Aaron.