What the heck about the Realms is Forgotten anyway?

[Alzrius]

You can play canon games all you want.

Thanks! I will!

All your contradictions are semantical.

Considering that semantics is meaning, that's true.

Still doesn't change anything.

Except for what's actually considered "correct" in-game.

Most of what I say still holds because you are talking about somthing completely different than what I am talking about.

In which case, then it really doesn't hold, since it isn't what I was talking about.

You are talking about realms canon. I am talking about mythological influence and placement and the evolution of a story over several rewritings.

In other words, I'm dealing with in-game reasons, and you with meta-game. No big deal.

Now what I meant about being true to the original Dieties and Demigods book was that often DMs in those days just mixed all the pantheons they could get their hands on. Also it shows that Ed was reading Dieties and Demigods when he was selecting what gods to put in the realms and that is why many of the gods in FR can also be found in RL.

Strictly speaking, we can't really say what "most" DMs then were doing, nor can we say that's evidence of what Ed was doing without asking him.

I could care less in game where Uthgar came from. All I am saying is that he came from the Rus pantheon and that idea got into the head of whoever put him in the realms.

Which is something I could care less about.

 

[jester47]

So the reason they are "forgotten" realms:

1. Originally they were connected to our world by portals that are now lost for one reason or another. This was the original in game explanation as to why gods we know about on earth are present in the realms. The out of game reason was that Ed is lazy and did not want to write his own gods so he used the original Dieties and Demigods to fill things out.

2. But then the writers figured that was dumb or somthing and changed it.

3. They put the portal story in some corner of the canon and came up with a new idea.

4 They decided to make the realms that were forgotten old empires and kingdoms that fell long ago and no one really remembers. This made things more mysterious. The gods could now be bigger than earth and you have a reason for all the magic.

Tada!

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

Thanks! I will!

Considering that semantics is meaning, that's true

Except for what's actually considered "correct" in-game.

In which case, then it really doesn't hold, since it isn't what I was talking about.

In other words, I'm dealing with in-game reasons, and you with meta-game. No big deal.

Strictly speaking, we can't really say what "most" DMs then were doing, nor can we say that's evidence of what Ed was doing without asking him.

Which is something I could care less about.

Darnit, you replied before I could edit, now I look like a disembodied head!

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

Considering that semantics is meaning, that's true.
Except for what's actually considered "correct" in-game.
In which case, then it really doesn't hold, since it isn't what I was talking about.
In other words, I'm dealing with in-game reasons, and you with meta-game. No big deal.
Strictly speaking, we can't really say what "most" DMs then were doing, nor can we say that's evidence of what Ed was doing without asking him.

Which is something I could care less about.

I care about in-game and I agree with you. I just cant articulate now cause I am too tired. The post you replied to was rushed, and so that one was hard to parse. My ingame and writing critiques keep blending. Which makes it really hard to understand me. I think my last post states it pretty clear. I hope.

Aaron.

 

[Alzrius]

I think my last post states it pretty clear. I hope.

Actually, I'm not at all sure what you meant when you said you now looked like a disembodied head.

 

[Faraer]

The Realms are forgotten for the reason Ed says they are, the reason grodog posted -- it's part of the basic premise of the setting. Both in his Realms and in the WotC Realms, since they haven't contradicted it. A couple more quotes:

Why include 'real world' gods in the Realms at all? Well, that's the "Forgotten" part of the name. I envisioned a multiverse of many, many parallel worlds (alternate, side-by-side Prime Material Planes, if you prefer), with Middle-Earth, Narnia, and many other favorite fantasy settings among them, all linked together with gates. There was once much travel between them (hence our own world's legends of dragons, etc., from before the links to other places became 'forgotten'), including huge migrations...until, inevitably, power groups of sinister and formidable beings fought to control access to/use of the gates. High-level campaign play in the 'original' Realms centered on PCs (unwittingly, at first) running afoul of some of these power groups, getting caught in the ongoing wars between them, and ending up as one such power group themselves. In the end, this Zelazny's Amber/Farmer's World of Tiers scope of play was handled differently by TSR (as Planescape).

Correct, in every respect. I postulated that a high-level campaign would involve battles for control of gates/portals against shadowy 'power groups' that controlled them...which became Planescape. :} Initially, TSR downplayed the "link with other worlds" aspect because of fears of negative publicity/James Egbert/"kids doing dangerous things and blaming D&D" fears.

 

[bret]

Here and I thought it was just balance that was forgotten in the realms....

 

[Dahak]

Strictly speaking, we can't really say what "most" DMs then were doing, nor can we say that's evidence of what Ed was doing without asking him.

I'm afraid Jester is absolutely correct on this point, and there is no need to ask Mr. Greenwood about it, as his words on the subject are already in print.

q.v.: Dragon, issue 54, pp. 6-8; article entitled "Down to earth divinity".

While I certainly can't vouch for most DMs in the whole of gaming circa the late '70s/early '80s, I will state as fact that myself and every other DM I knew personally at that time was using a mix-match pantheon from Dieities & Demigods and/or Gods, Demigods & Heroes. This was done in a manner very similar to what Mr. Greenwood describes in the referenced article, with some gods grouped together wholecloth, others renamed, and several slightly changed or combined.

I also see it as no coincidence that Hackmaster's default pantheon (The Gawds of Twilight Last) is a similarly rag-tag band. Considering the retro-friendly spirit in which the setting and game was written, it seems likely that many other DMs, outside the region I lived in, were doing the same things that I was.

 

[Nasma]

Call me stupid, but what's this 'canon' that everyone's talking about? I have never heard the term before.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm afraid Jester is absolutely correct on this point, and there is no need to ask Mr. Greenwood about it, as his words on the subject are already in print.

q.v.: Dragon, issue 54, pp. 6-8; article entitled "Down to earth divinity".

While I certainly can't vouch for most DMs in the whole of gaming circa the late '70s/early '80s, I will state as fact that myself and every other DM I knew personally at that time was using a mix-match pantheon from Dieities & Demigods and/or Gods, Demigods & Heroes. This was done in a manner very similar to what Mr. Greenwood describes in the referenced article, with some gods grouped together wholecloth, others renamed, and several slightly changed or combined.

The article by Ed is nice, but doesn't prove the point Jester was trying to make at all, since it isn't just Ed's Forgotten Realms, it's TSR/WotC's.

As for the rest of it, its largely irrelevant to what's being discussed, since, from what I recall, not having the article in front of me, its just about how to homebrew gods, and I'm talking about what's canon in-game now.

I also see it as no coincidence that Hackmaster's default pantheon (The Gawds of Twilight Last) is a similarly rag-tag band. Considering the retro-friendly spirit in which the setting and game was written, it seems likely that many other DMs, outside the region I lived in, were doing the same things that I was.

Maybe, maybe not. Either way, in the context of what I'm talking about, it doesn't matter, since I'm talking about the setting's current canon.

Nasma, the definition of the word "canon" is here. It's been slightly adapted from its original meaning in our use here to refer to what is "official" as opposed to unofficial workings by anyone other than the people who own/write the material in question (i.e. FR stuff by WotC is canon, FR stuff posted here is non-canon, for example).