What the heck is going on with the professional RPG industry in regards to Zak S?

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Hussar

Legend
Does anyone actually think this gross capatlism is acceptable? We'll defend abusers and work with them so long as we get to earn an extra buck off them? It certainly makes their claims of concern and distancing from Zak S ring hollow if this is truly what motivates them. A shame that such a great game is the hands of such a morally bankrupt organisation. Assuming Hussar is correct.

Why do you expect corporations to act in a moral manner in a capitalist system?

You asked, I answered. This is true of ALL businesses in a capitalist system. Capitalism has no morals.

I mean, good grief, they just signed that guy in the NFL who was on video tape beating a woman to a several million dollar deal. While we might wag fingers at the industry for being slow, at least they did finally act.
 

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Li Shenron

Legend
Are we as consumers okay at the professional RPG industry refusing to do business with someone over a mere allegation? Because I can see this quickly leading to some innocent people hurt sooner or later.

Speaking generically (not necessarily wrt. the current case), I am OK as a consumer.

Bad behaviour is one thing, criminal behaviour is another thing. The justice system takes care of criminal behaviours, and people in a community takes care of bad behaviours. I don't like to hear people calling for the justice system to punish someone who hasn't broken the law, but it's not necessary to break to the law to trigger a response from a community. Refusing to do business is an acceptable response even without proven criminal conduct.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
You asked, I answered. This is true of ALL businesses in a capitalist system. Capitalism has no morals.
Even Adam Smith understood this, but people generally ignore his writings on morality and ethics, and just focus on Wealth of Nations.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Strangely enough comments weren't enabled on the news article over Zak S being removed from the PHB. I'm not sure why
After reading five dozen comments on this one post, you probably know 'why' by now.

Some people have the privilege of not knowing anything at all about abusive relationships. They should consider themselves fortunate and live their lives in humility, because a great number of us know entirely too much about them.

I believe Hannah, Vivka, Mandy, and Jennifer. I support the decisions of DriveThruRPG, WotC and GenCon. And that's all I came here to say.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
Are we as consumers okay at the professional RPG industry refusing to do business with someone over a mere allegation? Because I can see this quickly leading to some innocent people hurt sooner or later.
The idea that this backlash exists the result of a "mere allegation" downplays the scope and nature of these allegations (plural). In particular, it's that 1) these allegations are about an individual with well-known toxic behavior (and lots of red flags), 2) these allegations came from his ex-wife (among other women) - whom the individual in question used as a puppet account for shielding his own toxic behavior online - and 3) the serious nature of these allegations rooted in sexual assault, rape, and abuse.

I also think that this immorally misplaces the moral obligation here. This is not about protecting hypothetical innocents that this may hurt, but, rather, about believing the actual victims of abuse who have been hurt by this individual. Worrying about hypothetical innocents of false accusations is attempting to deflect, derail, and damage the allegations made by abuse victims when they do arise through shifting the moral question to protecting a hypothetical class of corner cases. It basically hides the actual abuse committed by abusers behind the shield of hypothetical innocents, who constitute a slim minority of cases.

The below is a lot to unpack.
If they are acting on more than the allegation, and are in fact reacting to known behaviour of Zak S or so strongly suspected behaviour that they feel confident in their current reaction: What the heck was the RPG industry doing up until now? If Zak S is so bad that he should have every mention of him removed from the RPG industry, why didn't they do something before now?
Hence a lot of the current outrage. The tip of the iceberg toxic behaviors were publicly known and reported during the time of the D&D Next playtest and were left to fester in the community until now. (And a big part of the anger and disappointment is not just about Zak S but also on how Mike Mearls enabled and facilitated Zak S's toxic behavior.) This is not just about what Mandy Morbid reported Zak S did, but also about how the Industry turned a blind eye (or actively defended him) to a prominent toxic person who committed harm against the TTRPG community.

Also a critical difference from the time before these latest allegations is, again, the nature of the allegations, namely rape and sexual assault, as well as the current #MeToo movement, which really only began in the Autumn of 2017. The #MeToo movement has helped bolster and create a platform for victims of abuse in public spaces.

I certainly wasn't surprised to see the most recent allegation. So why the heck are they pretending to be surprised? And if they didn't have any suspicions, why are they taking such drastic action against someone without any legal proceedings occurring?
Some people should have known better, and there is no excuse for their surprise. For some people though it was a surprise, and they may have had their legitimate reasons for being surprised. Ignorance is bliss for some. Some people are not plugged into the social scene behind the publishing or the person's community engagement. If you only bought one of his books at a game shop because the staff or friend recommended it, you would likely not be aware of the author's full reputation. They either do not even know who Zak S is or his reputation in the community. Some people likely had suspicions but overlooked them because they believe the best in people (particularly those who may have regarded him as a friend), or they never personally experienced the problems themselves, or they were fooled by Zak S. A blog post by Mandy Morbid had provided Zak S with his most commonly cited shield against criticism. Even Mearls pointed to this blog post when he gaslighted (and dead names) victims of Zak's abuse and harassment. But we only fairly recently had it confirmed from Mandy Morbid that it was not her who wrote it. That revelation left a LOT of his defenders and apologists with egg on their face.
 

I tried to reply in a way why I think, that waiting to take possible actions against a probable abuser is sensible bit that would sound like defending...
so just a reminder: you need to be sure enough to take actions because as you see, the consequences are dramatic. As a company you need to be even more sure because otherwise legal actions can be taken against you.
 

5ekyu

Hero
I have generally avoided this topic and have read almost none of the comments. But...

"Does anyone actually think this gross capatlism is acceptable? We'll defend abusers..."

Its has always tended to be the case that public scandals of a certain level get you a new title at your job - " former". This is especially true when it hits public with a flurry from multiple sources and wide spread coverage.

Often, this does not wait for the full due process. Sometimes it has to go thru a process - suspension, internal investigation etc but for whether or not you hire contract work, include product, etc often not. You can usually stop working with someone at any time.

What varies from time to time and place to place is what type of scandal it is that gets more immediate response, which get slow and quiet response, which get quietly swept under the rug, etc.

So, this has been the way of things likely since the invention of scandal. But the flavors of the scandals that fit into the various "how do we respond" buckets has changed over time.

If your scandal will hurt the company, expect to be "former" or "future endeavored" or some other degree of cut off fast.
 

pemerton

Legend
To me it seems fairly straightforward.

When the 5e D&D PHB was published, WotC (the company), presumably relying in part on the judgement of Mearls and colleagues in the D&D team, formed the view that it was a market advantage to be assocated with certain known advocates of particular "old school" or at least anti-"new school" styles of D&D (ie RPG Pundit and Zak S).

Whereas they have now formed the view that such association would constitute a market detriment. The reasons why they would think so, and why they are probably right to think so, are pretty obvious.
 

Imaro

Legend
I think it may be that they just don't want the (possible??) headache of having D&D associated in general with any of the consultants anymore, probably with the Zak S. stuff being a catalyst for the move. (Honestly... is it a common practice for consultants to receive credit in a book??).

Anyway they didn't just remove Zak S. and RPG Pundit... they removed all of the consultants including Kenneth Hite, Kevin Kulp, Vincent Venturella & Robin Laws...none of whom I would classify as old school or anti-new school.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I think it may be that they just don't want the (possible??) headache of having D&D associated in general with any of the consultants anymore, probably with the Zak S. stuff being a catalyst for the move. (Honestly... is it a common practice for consultants to receive credit in a book??).

Anyway they didn't just remove Zak S. and RPG Pundit... they removed all of the consultants including Kenneth Hite, Kevin Kulp, Vincent Venturella & Robin Laws...none of whom I would classify as old school or anti-new school.

This is where I think WotC's response may be a bit on the excessive side. I have grave misgivings about a corporation erasing someone's credit - whether that person is a toad or not - without also removing the impact they've had on the product. But removing all of the consultants? If I had been involved at that level and had a credit removed, I'd be kind of pissed off.
 

D351

First Post
IMO, (and I did not read the seven pages of replies this post has already received) an abuser's reputation isn't enough to effect business relationships until someone makes that reputation into news. The latest allegations made it news. You don't lose business connections for being a bad person; you lose them for being outed as a bad person to the right people or enough people. It's not a perfect system, but it seems to have worked in this case (if not a bit late). There are certainly enough allegations and enough corroborating witnesses to presume that they are not simply made up. And no business, especially in an industry that is currently working hard against its own reputation of failing at inclusivity, wants to be attached to a reputation like ZS's.
 

Imaro

Legend
This is where I think WotC's response may be a bit on the excessive side. I have grave misgivings about a corporation erasing someone's credit - whether that person is a toad or not - without also removing the impact they've had on the product. But removing all of the consultants? If I had been involved at that level and had a credit removed, I'd be kind of pissed off.

Eh, I think it may be a way to avoid any legal entanglements... this way they can just claim they are no longer giving consultant credits in their book moving forward as opposed to specific reasons for specific consultants being removed... which could get messy. I don't think it's a big deal either way they weren't developers or designers and I'm not sure listing consultants in a book is a common practice.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
Does anyone actually think this gross capatlism is acceptable?

erm...have you heard of the United States? We have companies here that you can literally prove caused cancer and deaths in little children to save a few bucks, but because it couldn't be proved which children got cancer from the company's actions and which ones would have gotten cancer anyway they're off the hook.
 


D

dco

Guest
If you want to know if he is considered a rapist legally you have to wait until he is judged.
The roleplaying industry? Marketing and hipocrisy, they want to sell books, that's all.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
But removing all of the consultants? If I had been involved at that level and had a credit removed, I'd be kind of pissed off.

We don't know what his feedback was, or what of his even got used, so I don't know if his "level" of involvement is something we can speak to.

But, ultimately, consultants are not authors. In most industries, anyone called a "consultant" is a person who is hired on temporarily to lend a hand with something. They don't typically get insurance benefits or vacation days, much less get public credit outside the company for successes. If you were to get "pissed" about that, don't hire on as a consultant, as your expectations of what that means are a bit high.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Dialogue is good even if you disagree and no matter the topic of conversation - be it politics, religion or otherwise. People are becoming less tolerant of disagreement which, for me, is a bad thing.

I don't disagree in the slightest. I should have been a bit more clear; I was referring more to the concern trolling a la "will no one think of the poor harassers!" Obviously a legitimate dialogue about the reach and impact of any industry or community reaction to sexual harassment is a good thing. But when the folks pop out of the woodwork, as they inevitably do, to shout "well we can't ever prove it in a court of law so I guess we just have to keep letting sexualized violence get a pass, THAT'S THE PRICE WE PAY FOR FREEDOM" I can't help but feel a bit leery of them. Understandably so, I'd hope.

That said, and all due respect to the Darryl Davis's of the world, and the amazing work that they're doing, but nobody should be questioned for refusing to tolerate intolerance, Popper's Paradox and all that. That kind of work has a tremendous cost, and it's not one everybody has the ability to bear (nor should anybody be expected to bear it).
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Put differently: while we can’t all be saints, we can aspire to sainthood. But those who can’t achieve such a lofty goal shouldn’t be disparaged for falling short.
 

D351

First Post
After reading five dozen comments on this one post, you probably know 'why' by now.

Some people have the privilege of not knowing anything at all about abusive relationships. They should consider themselves fortunate and live their lives in humility, because a great number of us know entirely too much about them.

I believe Hannah, Vivka, Mandy, and Jennifer. I support the decisions of DriveThruRPG, WotC and GenCon. And that's all I came here to say.

What decision did Gen Con make? I haven't been able to find any response from them other than a non-committal tweet.
 

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