What the heck is "Unfun"?

[Raven Crowking]

You claim that the "extraordinary claims... etc" argument is a non rational way of avoiding actual debate by concealing baseline assumptions behind a catchy phrase.

Unless and until some threshold of proof is defined, yes.

"Shifting the Bar" is a catchy phrase, too.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I agree. I sometimes call this "obstructionist arguing" where you try to break down the possibility of having a discussion, rather than try to actually have it.

Excepting, of course, that what I wrote doesn't break down the possibility of having a discussion, but instead demonstrates that rather than simply saying "ECREP" (which is obstructionist arguing) the person requiring proof needs to indicate what would be acceptable to him or her.

IOW, if you say you want someone to prove something to you, but you continually shift the bar, you are stonewalling the argument. OTOH, if you have an open mind, and are willing to say where the bar is set, an actual discussion can take place.

I don't believe this because....., where there is a clear line of reasoning why one doesn't believe something, is always more conducive to discussion than "ECREP".


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

If you are happy with this mechanic, I don't understand your apparent insistence (on this and other threads) that the only (or at least principle) source of pleasure in playing D&D is operational success.

That's easy; I never said that the only, or principle, source of pleasure in playing D&D is operational success. You are mistaken in your belief.

A is important =/= A is the only, or principle, source of pleasure in playing.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It might be more interesting if some EXTRAORDINARY claim was actually made. Anyone who thinks my OP made such claims needs to rethink their definition of the word.

That was sort of my point, yes.

RC

 

[hong]

Excepting, of course, that what I wrote doesn't break down the possibility of having a discussion, but instead demonstrates that rather than simply saying "ECREP" (which is obstructionist arguing) the person requiring proof needs to indicate what would be acceptable to him or her.

Hmmm.

IOW, if you say you want someone to prove something to you, but you continually shift the bar, you are stonewalling the argument. OTOH, if you have an open mind, and are willing to say where the bar is set, an actual discussion can take place.

What, you mean like

Show me posts from these people saying the things that you claim they believe. And not just one or two people - on the internet, you can find one or two people saying anything. Show me... say, half a dozen different people saying that they want risk-free adventures. Not just people saying they don't like save-or-die effects or whatever, but people saying that they want absolutely no risk in their adventures whatsoever, as you claim.

If there are so many of these people out there, it should be a simple matter for you to find half a dozen or so. So let's see the posts.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

You're right, you can try and interpret it that way. But it then opens the possibility that Blackguards or Liches can drain Action Points with their fear or despair auras, and other in-game psychological considerations of that sort. Which I find a bit unsatisfying.

I think it's easier to just be upfront about the metagame nature of these mechanics, instead of contorting the gameworld's internal logic to fit them into it.

Okay, the blackguard thing I'm with you on and I'll grant you most of the rest, but liches draining AP (assuming AP are given an explanation similar to that of Void from L5R) with an aura of fear and despair is -awesome-.

 

[Henry]

I'm closing this thread for two reasons:

1. I've received at least five reported posts from different people about it in the past 24 hours, as well as one unreported moderation to it. Rather than issue a slate of warnings or bannings, it's better to let the thread die.

2. I've been watching the last two pages fill with nothing but the same people rehashing the same things, to the frustration of most parties involved. It's usually that kind of a point when tempers start flaring for little reason or provocation.

In short, the thread has run its course. Let's give this topic a rest for a while, and let tempers cool down and let the insults one to another subside.