What the Heck was I Thinking?!? (Conan Rpg)

[Treebore]

If my desire for high quality product in exchange for my high quality money is the kind of "ire" you are referring to, then I have given my share of it to WOTC and others. Irregardless of the cover price. It is just that increasing the cover price along with the mistakes, instead of the quality/craftsmenship, gives me something else to be disgusted by.

At least Mongoose has admitted they put out "embarassing" product and is doing what they can about it. That is one heck of a show of desire for integrity. BTW, embarassing is a word Matt used himself. I applaud Matt and his show of integrity. There are thousands of other businesses out there that need to learn from Matt's example.

The only way we are going to get better product is to make it clear we refuse to buy anything full of mistakes. Otherwise, where is their motivation to improve? We cannot rely on them (business in general) to have integrity on their own. Plus, if no one complains, how are they going to know what is wrong to begin with?

I do not "get" this apparent desire to forgive and forget bad product that so many people appear to do. IT is our money we are spending. It is our consumer right to get good solid product for our money.

Being willing to say, "Hey, your product isn't good enough for me to buy it!" is not a bad thing. IT is what is necessary to push a company, or industry, to give us the quality we want, and deserve.

That is what I expect for me, and what I give to my customers.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Being willing to say, "Hey, your product isn't good enough for me to buy it!" is not a bad thing. IT is what is necessary to push a company, or industry, to give us the quality we want, and deserve.

The number of consumers who show that kind of resolve are far outnumbered by those who just don't care.

You have to keep in mind there are millions of roleplayers, yet print runs are in the thousands.

Result: You can afford to piss off a whole lot of people and still sell through your print run.

That, coupled with the extraordinarily front-list driven nature of the business, means that the quality angle is not the most profitable angle. You'll actually do better by simply pushing as many titles through the pipeline as possible, which, unfortunately, leaves quality behind as a casualty.

That being said, something must have happened to make Matt take the stand he's taken, which looks like good news for everybody.


Wulf

 

[Numion]

Don't worry. Once Mongoose reach a certain business height, it is only natural that more complaints about their products will come to the surface. After all, we like to hit those that are better than we are.

And that's probably how I developed an unhealthy fear of success. I don't like people to hate me.

At least around a year ago Mongoose had put more d20 / D&D books out than WotC. Surely thats an indicator of some succes.

I was just saying that the difference isn't success here - it's simply the fact that WotC is the big bad corporation and it's cool to hate them, and Mongoose gets a free pass when producing overpriced and sub-par quality products. Hence, a double standard.

I can just imagine the outcry that would've happened if WotC had pulled this stunt - jacked prices up while worsening quality. Wait, I don't have to, it happens every time WotC puts out a hardcover regardless of quality

In Mongooses case the reviews I've seen have completely neglected to note the errors in the book, and have given it even perfect scores in some cases. Thats suspect in my mind.

 

[Razuur]

Soooooo tired of this complaint. They are making changes to rectify this.

If that beautiful book doesn't make you happy - nothing will.

Gads.

Razuur

 

[Spatula]

Soooooo tired of this complaint. They are making changes to rectify this.

If that beautiful book doesn't make you happy - nothing will.

Not even almost the exact same beautiful book but with better editing?

 

[trancejeremy]

In the review of Conan I wrote for RPG.net (which isn't up yet, unfortunately), I was sorely tempted to knock down the grade for all the typos and problems. But ultimately, I really do like the rules of it. I gave it a 2 out of 5 on Style, though (and a 4 out of 5 on substance), which I think is pretty accurate and fair.

Anyway, if Mongoose gave me a fixed Conan book for free/replacement, I would be very happy. But I doubt they will do that. (I'd be even happier if they put me on their reviewer's list, but that ain't gonna happen, either)

 

[Vocenoctum]

Soooooo tired of this complaint. They are making changes to rectify this.

If that beautiful book doesn't make you happy - nothing will.

Gads.

Razuur

No offense, but they're not rectifying it, they're not replacing the erroneous copies. I can't imagine them doing so, but that's really the only full correction. They're doing what they can, but it's not like the errors are new to this book alone.
Are they trashing the remainder of the first print run I wonder, or did they sell through.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

No offense, but they're not rectifying it, they're not replacing the erroneous copies. I can't imagine them doing so, but that's really the only full correction. They're doing what they can, but it's not like the errors are new to this book alone.
Are they trashing the remainder of the first print run I wonder, or did they sell through.

I very much doubt that they can afford to give everybody replacement copies. And I believe that they are selling through them.

As someone else mentioned many of the errors are not integral to the system, that is that the system itself is largely unaffected. The biggest exception that I have heard is that the weapon damages are inconsistent. Sounds to me rather like they got too close to their print deadline (Missing a print deadline can be expensive!) and rushed it out the door. It wouldn't surprise me if the find/replace errors were done as a last minute bit of 'polish' that went horribly wrong.

And it is quite likely is partly the fault of an early version of Quark, which was the only version that I ever used. Among other things it had a terrible global find and replace. The program would and could do horrible things to your document if you weren't careful, and on occassion even if you were but didn't go back and take a look at a hardcopy of the final presentation. On a number of occassions what showed up on screen was a picture with the text flowing smoothly around it. What came out of the printer was a picture with the text hidden under it...

One of the main selling points for changing over to Indesign was that it 'isn't Quark!' (And the difference in price between upgrading Quark and buying Indesign new was less than expected. )

The Auld Grump, who also misses

 

[Ranger REG]

At least around a year ago Mongoose had put more d20 / D&D books out than WotC. Surely thats an indicator of some succes.

With all due respect, the number of product releases is not an indicator of success. TSR did the same and look where they are now.

It's when you can sell out the first, second, maybe even the third printing of your products, and you get a healthy profit margin after all of the publishing expenses and overhead paid.

I was just saying that the difference isn't success here - it's simply the fact that WotC is the big bad corporation and it's cool to hate them, and Mongoose gets a free pass when producing overpriced and sub-par quality products. Hence, a double standard.

True, but WotC have been around longer than Mongoose and more exposed thanks their overnight 1990's success of Magic: The Gathering and Pokemon Trading Card Game.

Mongoose is still a startup company.

I can just imagine the outcry that would've happened if WotC had pulled this stunt - jacked prices up while worsening quality. Wait, I don't have to, it happens every time WotC puts out a hardcover regardless of quality

Not every time. If what you say is true, we should be paying for supplements in the $45 price range, and core rulebooks in the $60 range each. But hey, if you can help the economy and stop the inflation so we can get paid more and spend less, I welcome you to try. AFAIC, the staff don't get paid enough.

In Mongooses case the reviews I've seen have completely neglected to note the errors in the book, and have given it even perfect scores in some cases. Thats suspect in my mind.

Depends on how crucial the errors are. That's why I ask if there are any mechanical/rules errors. As for grammatical error, let's face it. They don't get paid enough like those professional mainstream writers.

 

[Razuur]

No, I guess my point is - everybody has errata - including wizards. It is a part of the RPing industry - whether you are a little publishign house, or a huge one.

By rectifying, I meant they are takig steps to insure that this does not happen in the future - check the Publishing forum for more info.

No offense taken. Some people are just grateful that they got a Conan book at all - and one as beautiful as the one that came out. I think it is one of the top 20 D20 products out there, IMHO. YMMV, however.

I get real frustrated hearing everybody say the bad about products, and never any of the good. Our standards have raised quite a bit from the time that Rping was all but dying. Now we get some fantastic products, and hold them to an awfully high horse.

I guess in the end. I am just grateful, and I wish others were as well.

Razuur