What the World needs: E6 in Book Format

[Ry]

What I'm saying is that I'd put capstones as an appendix.

Is what I'm saying. So that way people get whatever flavor they want.

Agreed about keeping out monsters whose spell lists cause them to be "too high" - give them another appendix.

 

[Nifft]

What I'm saying is that I'd put capstones as an appendix.

Is what I'm saying. So that way people get whatever flavor they want.

Agreed about keeping out monsters whose spell lists cause them to be "too high" - give them another appendix.

Yep yep. An appendix of variant rules -- with discussion about their implications, both in isolation and combination -- will add a lot of value.

But the baseline should be the core rules.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kunimatyu]

I'm going on the record agreeing with this. There's no need. It was something I introduced because a lot of people wanted it. I'd rather a "core E6 rulebook" didn't have anything except the base rules to level 6 (but picking base rules is up to you folks)

I *was* a big proponent of capstone abilities back in the day....but funny thing was, they just never came up in my actual E6 campaign. They certainly weren't necessary, in my experience.

One thing my players DID like, though, was splitting up the benefits of leveling (BAB, HD, saves, feats) so that there was a good chance of "mini-leveling" once per session and seeing SOMETHING go up.

 

[Ry]

One other thing: if E6 jus means you structure a game better where the game goes only to level 6 - i.e.

If some table enjoys An epic 6 level awesome game
rather than
a game that peters off at level 8 because the "important stuff" was set for level 15.

Then for the following night, I am finally able to sleep.

 

[fireinthedust]

I don't see the point in having the stats for a tarrasque. The PCs can't do anything about it, so it does whatever damage the DM wants and leaves. Even the rest of the creatures need thought; if humans can no longer reach 15th level, real powerful intelligent creatures either need to be running things or have a good reason they aren't.

The point isn't always to have monsters the PCs can beat. Sometimes it's more about knowing what a creature could do if it were there. Having the stats of the horrible thing that the BBEG will release if the PCs don't win.

Terrasque notwithstanding, the PCs could run across an area with a giant Dragon in it.

E6 talks about the characters in a realistic sense. Read The Alexandrian. This is the entire reason for having E6. If you don't get into that headspace, none of the creatures make sense. E6 is about scale, getting away from the unrealistic ability of a character to not die horribly after being stabbed properly.

 

[prosfilaes]

E6 talks about the characters in a realistic sense. Read The Alexandrian. This is the entire reason for having E6. If you don't get into that headspace, none of the creatures make sense. E6 is about scale, getting away from the unrealistic ability of a character to not die horribly after being stabbed properly.

I understand that, I think. But in most TSR worlds, humans are the apex predators. Nothing is going to march straight into Waterdeep because humans will stomp it into the ground. In a E6 world, if there's much big nasty stuff around, why isn't it running Waterdeep or has destroyed Waterdeep?

The point isn't always to have monsters the PCs can beat. Sometimes it's more about knowing what a creature could do if it were there. Having the stats of the horrible thing that the BBEG will release if the PCs don't win.

Terrasque notwithstanding, the PCs could run across an area with a giant Dragon in it.

Er, an Adult Red Dragon (from Pathfinder) can basically autokill any 6th level character with its breath, force them to make DC 21 Will save not to run away (i.e. a 6th level cleric might bring that tp 50/50), has a 29 AC, DR 5/magic = actually hurting it is going to be extremely rare, and 212 hp = even if you can hurt it, it's not going to make a difference. And Speed 40 / 200 flying, so even if you can make a plan, it can outfly it. What more do you need on stats? This is a tarrasque--completely unkillable short of a wish--in a E6 world. If it shows up, you're either going to try and engage in diplomacy, run away, or use the Macguffin against it. Go ahead and wing it; the stats just don't matter.

Even if you insist on stats for one tarrasque, just how many do you need? The Pathfinder Bestiary lists 42 creatures at CR 12 or above. Admittedly, we're talking about different ages of dragons and some good creatures, but one of any of them could take out as much of humanity as they wanted.

 

[Ry]

I find it helpful to move away from the abstract argument
In terms of an E6 book, think about page count - GMs would find the Umber Hulk stats helpful than, say, the Tarrasque. So I'd edit accordingly.

If you are making a REALLY HEAVY E6 book, then include an appendix of Demon Lords and stuff, including the Tarrasque, a Pit Fiend, whatever, along with a few pages each for how to use them in your game. Maybe see about bundling some other d20 material appendices.

If you're making a quick, light, drop and play kind of book, then have fewer appendices and leave the Tarrasque out.

(You might notice a theme here, I'm big on appendices / supplements for compartmentalizing information).

 

[fireinthedust]

I understand that, I think. But in most TSR worlds, humans are the apex predators. Nothing is going to march straight into Waterdeep because humans will stomp it into the ground. In a E6 world, if there's much big nasty stuff around, why isn't it running Waterdeep or has destroyed Waterdeep?

Well, that's the plot.

Really, humans aren't the apex predators: the PCs are.

The Orcs do come out of the mountains and attack Waterdeep. If it weren't for the archmage protectors backed by their deity Mystra, and others; or Halister Blackcloak of Undermountain, who likes humans because they enter Undermountain so his pets can eat them; Waterdeep would have fallen. I think it may have done so at least several times before Ed Greenwood and his friend made up the apex predators of FR.

Orcs are just one example. Ogres are another. Hobgoblins. And, yes, Dragons.

Er, an Adult Red Dragon (from Pathfinder) can basically autokill any 6th level character with its breath, force them to make DC 21 Will save not to run away (i.e. a 6th level cleric might bring that tp 50/50), has a 29 AC, DR 5/magic = actually hurting it is going to be extremely rare, and 212 hp = even if you can hurt it, it's not going to make a difference. And Speed 40 / 200 flying, so even if you can make a plan, it can outfly it. What more do you need on stats? This is a tarrasque--completely unkillable short of a wish--in a E6 world. If it shows up, you're either going to try and engage in diplomacy, run away, or use the Macguffin against it. Go ahead and wing it; the stats just don't matter.

Exactly. That's the point.

But the gods have stats in D&D, including two books focused on them: FR's faiths & Pantheons, and of course Deities and Demigods. Heck, Monte Cook's Call of Cthulhu d20 has a set of stats for Azathoth of all things (and the other Mythos members, like Cthulhu and Nyarlethotep), and I guarantee you no PC of a regular game will fight that guy for more than a round.

Setting is more than what they would do normally. It is the perilous situation the characters find themselves in *right now*.

Dragons sit on mountains of gold. They sleep there for centuries. The PCs could get that gold if they figured out a way to stop the dragon from waking up permanently. Maybe they just have to use dynamite on the Lonely Mountain, cave in the roof and crush the dragon. Maybe they could quest for an artifact that could open a portal to the plane of water and *drown* the fire-breathing dragon. Maybe they need to make a pact with the Frost Giant Jarl, who sits on his throne in Jotunheim waiting to fight Thor at Ragnarok.

Saying "it's E6: so there isn't anything beyond 6HD" doesn't make a good game, and it isn't E6.

E6 means HUMANS aren't above 6th level.

That doesn't mean that, in ancient days *other* creatures mastered magics incomprehensible to humans, and left their magic lying about in ruins. Who ruined them? Why, the Terrasque did when it escaped; or the more powerful Red Dragon, who casts unspeakably powerful spells as a part of its nature.

There could even be only "a" Ancient Red Dragon Greatwyrm, the mother of all dragons. A critter like that *should* be so fierce the PCs wouldn't stand them. And there's only that one.

All the top-level dragons could be "the" Council of Wyrms.

As for why they're not just coming down out of the mountains and killing all humans... This link discusses the Underdark and why we're not swimming in Beholders who've already destroyed the world. I am convinced it is essential reading for setting design in E6.

 

[Ry]

I love the dedication to the E6 idea but for required reading, nah.

Get your campaign idea first, then choose rules that serve you and your players. Don't feel constrained by the existence of a monster in the SRD - do what works for your table/world/game.

 

[deinol]

[MENTION=51930]fireinthedust[/MENTION]: That is why I suggested around CR10 for the cut off on a digest book. Yes, the rules support the elder dragon, but those are going to be very rare in an E6 game. What I would want in an E6 book is something small and tight that you can easily run most games from. If the GM needs to print out the occasional really tough critter that should be a rare enough encounter that it isn't needed in a small reference.

A dragon in an E6 game is going to be the sort that can kick the dwarves out of their mountain lair and terrorize the nearby town for *years* before a group of heroes come and pull together to defeat him.