What to do about the 15-minute work day?

[mlund]

Not every encounter should end in bloodshed, IMO.

True, though I think the "random encounter" tied back to the 15-minute work-day is the sense that threats from Ye Olde Wandering Monster Table (yes, there was totally a wandering monster check in AD&D) created incentive to not blow all your resources and count on being able to restore them all unmolested. Sketchy merchants and the wandering harlot table aren't the kind of encounters you worry about cropping up because you're short on HP and out of Fireballs.

Raiders, Thieves, Spies, Bullying nobles? Yeah, those could go badly. The idea is that you don't use all your combat resources at once because there's a significant possibly someone or something else could pick a fight with you before you get them back and it'll all end in tears.

- Marty Lund

 

[pemerton]

The players get to tell the DM what treasure they find?! I'm sure there are checks and balances in place to prevent abuse...but I can't help but imagine it going something like this

Agreeing with others that there is no real need for inane caricature.

It's not a player power to retcon. But there is a GM who posts here (I can't remember who) who describes the masses of riches the PCs find in general terms, and then lets them specify back at home base exactly what it was they came away with. Schroedinger's Treasure!

The player doesn't decide that there is a princess that needs rescuing, and that the princess will be guarded by a dragon, for example...that is decided by the DM.

In my case, who the opposition is, and the precise form of adversity, is something that emerges out of both player and GM contributions. The players will often introduce general conceptions of who their enemies, allies, relationships etc are. I tend to work out the details of how those things are under threat.

 

[Elf Witch]

Thankfully, 5E is all about having the Magic, Loot, and XP dials available so the settings can be customized for the game you want to play. If you like low-magic, slow-level, and high-risk games you can certainly have your fill without anyone else's fun getting in your way.



As above, the dials are going to be there for you to adjust as needed. Nothing's going to stop you from opting out of it any more than you'll be stopped from gaining XP at half the default rate or seeing less magic items.

The only thing I see that might not mesh with your play-style is the currently-existing paradigm of various modules or adventure paths assuming that your characters level on the way through them: stuff like Reavers of Harkenwold or Red Hand of Doom. Still, if the challenges are as easy to scale and modify as they were in 4E it'll be a snap to adjust.

- Marty Lund

I am willing to adapt my play style for modules and adventure paths.

This is my hope for 5E that it will be easy to take things out and add things in without worrying to much about breaking the basic balance.

 

[Elf Witch]

Your example is a little extreme, given that the actual suggestion is simply for a wish-list of items that the DM may, optionally, work naturally into his adventure.

That said, I'd take even that extreme example over the alternative.

DM: You enter the ancient crypt, and there upon the altar of Odin, you find the legendary Spear of Power! Your quest is finally at an end!

Player: Spear, huh? Umm, hands up who's good with spears? ...No? Ah well, put a cork on it and stick it in the bag of holding - we'll offload it with the rest of the junk back in town.

Talk about extremes, how about your quest is over you have found the lost spear of Odin.

Player awesome we now have the tool we need to close the gate to the abyss.

 

[mlund]

Talk about extremes, how about your quest is over you have found the lost spear of Odin.

Player awesome we now have the tool we need to close the gate to the abyss.

Player: "Dude? What are you talking about? If we close the gate to the Abyss how are we going to get to Orcus to kill him and take his stuff? I've got to find some place to pawn this stupid stick so I can get a Holy Avenger before we leave ..."

D&D takes all kinds - from the Thespians to the Boot-'em and Loot-'em types.

- Marty Lund

 

[Elf Witch]

Player: "Dude? What are you talking about? If we close the gate to the Abyss how are we going to get to Orcus to kill him and take his stuff? I've got to find some place to pawn this stupid stick so I can get a Holy Avenger before we leave ..."

D&D takes all kinds - from the Thespians to the Boot-'em and Loot-'em types.

- Marty Lund

Yes it does which is why I found both examples rather extreme and a little silly.

A good DM should have some kind of clue of what motivates and rewards his players.

Though I have heard complaints from fellow DMs about players who feel they should be able to dictate what items they want. It is one thing to give me some clues about what you want and another to expect me to cough them off exactly when and where and how you want.

I did find it a little off putting that they put the magic item list in the PHB in 4E I really don't think it belongs there.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, the "wish list" thing isn't even a rules mechanic. It's in the advice for successful DM'ing in the DMG about communicating and managing expectations re: treasure. That advice was basically a response to the old AD&D problem of rolling random treasure tables and getting loot no one can use, or playing a module and getting one-size fits all treasure you can't use. Some DM's don't have any use for that advice. Fine for them. Some people even just run around using the idea to troll the internet (like Edition Warriors and Operating System Fan-bois).

This is it exactly. Wish lists are a player's way of saying, "Hey, DM - I think it'd be really cool if Ragnar the Bloodthirster had a flaming sword."

Which lets the DM go, "Hmm ... I bet if I drop a rumor or two about a bandit king doing damage to the countryside and burninating peasants' houses with his flaming sword, I'll have two PCs buying in immediately: the paladin to stop the injustice, and Ragnar for the cool sword."

DMs are, of course, free to ignore such wish lists ... but why would you?

 

[mlund]

I did find it a little off putting that they put the magic item list in the PHB in 4E I really don't think it belongs there.

Well, in AD&D -> 3.5 Edition they padded the page-count of the PHB with 100+ pages of Vancian Spell Lists. 4E cut that out so they had to replace it with something. They cut almost all the Magic Items out of the Essentials player's books (leaving in only a few examples) but then again they cut the words-per-page count down by like 30% or so and dropped 3 classes each - still hitting that 300+ page sweet spot.

Actually, I found it more off-putting that the mechanical balance of the monsters and challenges assumed players would get useful magic item enhancement bonuses to their attacks ranging from +1 to +6 over 30 levels or the players couldn't hit anything, and it actually restricted use by level to keep players from jumping ahead and messing up balance. It totally cut into the stingy-bloke DM and the Monty Haul DM's prerogatives. You had to do all sorts of rebalancing to compensate for not going along with the math.

Likewise 3rd Edition with its DR and AC escalation and spell output escalation was always assuming weapon-based combatants were advancing their enhancement bonuses on gear as well.

In both editions one of the worst things you could do to a fighting character was take their stuff. I once had a table nearly implode because a Living Greyhawk module has Hill Giants with Improved Sunder and giant axes. Seriously, one guy had to talk this girl back to the table when the +3 Elvencraft Longbow (the one that doubled as a quarterstaff so the ends were enchanted individually for melee too) she'd dumped 2 years worth of accumulated loot value into got turned into a pile of broken sticks in a single swing. It was crap-tacular.

- Marty Lund

 

[Fifth Element]

DMs are, of course, free to ignore such wish lists ... but why would you?

Well said. While some try to paint wish lists as the ultimate in player entitlement, they can actually be very useful in generating hooks, if you choose to use them that way.

 

[CleverNickName]

In both editions one of the worst things you could do to a fighting character was take their stuff. I once had a table nearly implode because a Living Greyhawk module has Hill Giants with Improved Sunder and giant axes. Seriously, one guy had to talk this girl back to the table when the +3 Elvencraft Longbow (the one that doubled as a quarterstaff so the ends were enchanted individually for melee too) she'd dumped 2 years worth of accumulated loot value into got turned into a pile of broken sticks in a single swing. It was crap-tacular.

Ouch. I had a similar problem at my table, when a player's fighter ran afoul of a rust monster. The player got so mad he wadded up his character sheet and threw it at me, and loudly hurled a few non-grandmother-friendly adjectives. It took almost an hour to calm him down.

Well said. While some try to paint wish lists as the ultimate in player entitlement, they can actually be very useful in generating hooks, if you choose to use them that way.

I agree; DMs and players alike should work together to create a meaningful and fulfilling story. Maybe that means being a bit of a Santa DM, maybe not...it depends on the style of game and the attitudes of the players.

In my defense, I don't play 4E. So today, in this thread, was the first time I had ever heard of a "wish list," and it was described to me as a player expectation, not as a DM suggestion. Clearly I interpreted it wrong.