What to do when your PC's have just lost the plot

[Janx]

I definitely agree with Umbran.

Derren's method might be fine enough for the party is in a room, and they fail to exercise due diligence, so they miss an opportunity.

But a big mystery, spread across many sessions, lots of clues starts crossing into a situation that is harder for the players to keep track of than the actual PCs.

I wouldn't even be sure the players are trying to solve it. All this stuff might be just background info and random encounters to them when all they came for was a dungeon crawl. Letting the BBEG win because of that will feel like a railroad to them because the GM failed to deliver the game type THEY came for and instead foisted this apocalypse on them.

I think Celebrim's on the right track. Stop the train. Inspect the engine. Make sure everybody's all aboard.

I think in any case, PC victory over the BBEG will be a bit weaker, once a solution is implemented. But you know what, winning your first T ball game isn't as good as hitting your first home run either. As Umbran says, they need to learn how to do this.

I think a minimal conversation needs to happpen first. Get some info on what the PCs goal is and why. This may advise you that they had no clue they were "supposed" to solve a murder mystery.

You need to find out why the players don't ask NPCs for info or help. They sound like they don't trust NPCs or don't realize they are a resource, or they want to be entirely self sufficient.

From there, either as GM or as an NPC "Detective", walk through the case with them. Have the NPC point out clues and connections, but let the PCs finish the work. The NPC, perhaps a retired detective, has been watching this case. He's not able to just "go solve it", but he wants to pass on his skills. So have HIM ask if the PCs have questioned so and so that a letter references if the conversation doesn't lead the PCs to think of that themselves.

An NPC like that to review the case and ask the questions of the PCs and info that they players aren't, may jog the Players onto what they need to be doing and how they need to be doing it.


Innerdude's idea of having a new mission from another NPC that just rams right into the BBEG or the mystery NPC is also a decent solution. It basically says, "the PCs will eventually run into the BBEG so we can finish this story". If the PCs are smart, they'll see the clues and get their sooner. if they are dumb, they'll bumble into it. Consider how many movies are just the latter... Afterwards, post-game discussion about all the symbols and clues will reveal that the answer was in front of them all along.

I don't see "pre-destined collision" as a problem or as a giveaway victory. In any single encounter, the PCs could die. So be it. Or they fail, and runaway. Unless the PCs die, that means they can try again, usually from a setback position (things are worse). Eventually they'll get there, or die. I don't have to escalate the bad guy's plan as a consequence of PC failure if the situation doesn't really warrant it. So the pacing can reasonably be controlled. And wiring up a final "this is so obvious you can't miss it" adventure to get the PCs to fight the BBEG (perhaps because he is now on top of the clock tower wiring up his doomsday machine with lightning going on all over and EVERYBODY knows something is up) is not a terrible thing.

If a few PCs get knocked off and fall to their death, so be it it. Destiny doesn't mean a few eggs won't get broken.

 

[Nagol]

I don't think I ever indicated that the world is static. If the players fail to stop the BBEG, his plot goes forward with all its consequences. NPCs will try and fail to stop the BBEG on their own, and various events will occur according to the logic of the setting.

But, at some point if I just let that happen it means the PCs are moved from protagonist status to observer status, and are left behind by the story to engage in comparatively meaningless tasks not involving saving the world.



That's the problem here. I try hard to utilize the three clue rule. At this point, despite missing a few clues, I think that the players have tons of options for tracking down the BBEG. If it was merely a matter of them being out of clues, I could use an event to dangle another clue in their faces... which I may have to do anyway. But the problem has not been the lack of information, but the lack of follow up. At this point, the players have been in my game for literally hundreds of hours. Yet they are still playing with very little finesse or comfort.

Early on I presented linear adventures in small worlds - in essence giving the players little or no choice and railroading them onto the plot. This was because I knew they were inexperienced and because there wasn't yet time for them to have accumulated information about the setting - I had to give them an initial set of three clues.

I then added the twist of having a linear path and a red herring (a dead end). At that level of complexity, they've never been able to go forward. They get stuck, unable to choose between the two approaches. Worse, they literally prefer to attempt 'brute force' solutions to any sort of branching problem. They persistently investigate all dungeons using the right hand rule. I've thought of metagaming that behavior, but they have a knack of getting into the dungeon from the most round about direction. They have a knack of picking the right door last. The closest I've ever come to a TPK is in a dungeon they early on realized that they could track the BBEG by following the path of the open doors (and disabled traps) he'd left behind him in his exploration. After having been very successful with that, they suddenly decided to open a door and walk into a telescoped death trap that practically had a neon sign on it. They've recently suggested the equivalent of searching the entire world systematically for a volcano that fits a description they've been given, despite being in a city famous for its knowledgeable scholars. Worse, they've suggested buying a map and searching 'all remote areas'. If presented with a list of suspects, they basically assault each suspect on the list until they find the one that seems both evil and capable of defending themselves. Because there are very few high level characters in my campaign world, this generally 'works' for detecting a foe - if they can fight back when a group of PC's rough them up, chances are they are indeed the bad guys. The are generally never able to understand why the clues pointed to this person. I of course could easily thwart this behavior and cause it to work against the players, but if I do so it would probably be campaign wrecking.

And the thing is, these are not unintelligent people. Some of them are downright brilliant. I'm at a loss to explain it, but it's getting frustrating. I feel reduced to putting '!' marks over the heads of quest givers and giving them a map with 'go here' marked with a big yellow target.

I had similar problems with groups in the past. What I've adopted is an post-session "after-action" OOC conversation with the players where I ask what choices they saw, contrast with (some) genre-appropriate choices I saw and ask for reasons choosing the choices they did make. I not judging players' play, but rather trying to understand areas where the play group and I differ on genre assumptions, game assumptions, or where I did not convey the information I thought I did.

It helps pick up game expectation differences, helps alleviate genre assumption gaps, and can be used to highlight areas where the party decision-making is sub-optimal without a requiring in-game negative reinforcement like a TPK or major failure of player goals.

As for in-game avenues to explore, it depends on the group.

Assuming the group is interested in this genre, but reasonably inexperienced I'd probably give them some in-game prodding.

• Have them overhear some NPCs talking about getting help from sages while their in town on something unrelated.
• Have a friendly NPC with access to some of their oldest clues piece some of it together (to the point the PCs could have with the information in front of them) and come to them with his revelation and recommend a subject matter expert who may know more.
• Have a less friendly NPC offer to sell intel at 100% markup over the sage cost and have the PCs be able to find out where he got it and the true cost.
• Have the local bar-keep say he couldn't help but overhear their conversation and there's nobody better than X at answering that sort of question short of the divinities themselves and they should mention his name for special pricing (the bar-keep gets a 5% referral fee of course).
• Have a sage on topics they should be interested in ask them for help on an unrelated matter. His introduction should include his specialty.

 

[Celebrim]

3) If your game uses Action Points or something similar as a mechanic, institute a "you may spend an action point to get a clue".

So far, that seems like the most useful advice in the thread. I do have a mechanic like 'Action Points' called 'Destiny Points'. Destiny points represent the universe's favor toward you. Trading them for a hint might in fact make me nudging the party out of character a bit less awkward, and by giving up a metagame resource to get the hint, it feels less like I'm playing their character by telling them what to do OOC.

I need to brain storm up some puzzle pieces too. Hopefully, with more pieces the picture will start to get clearer.

One of the problems is that I've removed the 'Gather Information' skill. You can still 'gather information' by using either Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate but modern gamers seem to need not only a button to push, but a button that is very clearly labeled as such.

 

[Janx]

I then added the twist of having a linear path and a red herring (a dead end). At that level of complexity, they've never been able to go forward. They get stuck, unable to choose between the two approaches. Worse, they literally prefer to attempt 'brute force' solutions to any sort of branching problem.

You definitely have a problem.

Let's go over the clues:
players use brute force for most solutions
players stick to Rule of Right for dungeon crawling
players beat up NPCs to detect that 'bad one"
players don't ask NPCs for help/info
Players don't seem to know the city they are in is known for having experts in the information they seek

I don't know if I'd do any better for figuring out the clues, but I talk to NPCs and I don't beat up every NPC I see.

I think your players have a specific mode of playing and they don't deviate.

They aren't paying attention to any detail in your game. Thus, sticking to the Rule of Right works for them, because they weren't listening to anything that would have told them which door to actually choose.

 

[Derren]

I agree with [MENTION=8835]Janx[/MENTION].

Looks like you are stuck with dungeon crawl players who just want a NPC which points them into the direction of stuff they can beat up. There is nothing much you can do about that. Training them to like other things takes a long time and often doesn't work and playing something else that what they want just frustrates them which increases your frustration even more.

Best thing to do is either accept it and roll with it or dissolve the group or at least the game. A setting/system change might help but is not guaranteed.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I don't really like investigation stuff, but really, it does sound like you have done a good job here with the clues. What I wonder is what motivation the characters have for finding this BBEG? It's not mentioned in your posts, it might be what is missing.

Anyway, if the character motivation for finding the BBEG is there, it might just be that your players suck at investigation. If so, you can still make the game interesting, but you have to give more direct info to the players. One way of doing it is out of session talk to each player individually and discuss one of the clues (a different one for each player). Try to get why that player isn't using that clue and try to ask leading questions until the player gets the clue. Then tell the player to try to roleplay that his character has found the clue and tell about it to the other players. Sure you have "cheated", but you can still get a lot of roleplaying done.

 

[Nellisir]

players use brute force for most solutions
players stick to Rule of Right for dungeon crawling
players beat up NPCs to detect that 'bad one"
players don't ask NPCs for help/info
Players don't seem to know the city they are in is known for having experts in the information they seek

Honestly, that sounds a bit like me. I am apparently mr. methodical in dungeon exploration. Why? Paranoia. I do not leave unopened doors behind me. I suspect everything is a trap. I suspect all NPCs are lying, always. And when not enough stuff is happening, I make things happen, usually by hitting things.

I would hire NPCs, but none ever seem available, and the last one we hired turned berserker and started sucking the blood out of slain goblins. Atypical halfling behavior, IMO.

I think you need more flashy signs, more glittery bling, and more action.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

It sounds like you have a fun game that I would enjoy. Two suggestions:

First, you can try leading them by the hand on a few of these clues. For a) an ally approaches them and says "I need a mole in the BBEG's organization and I've learned that there's a (profession) working for him that's disgruntled. I need to leave the city immediately for (some important reason). Could you approach this guy and share what you find out?" Hopefully they'll realize that they could have done that themselves. You could try that with a few of your clues and see if they start picking it up themselves.

Alternately you could have them randomly run into the guy to jog their memory or create an urgent need for them to see him for another reason, like "That poison is resistant to magic, but since cattle often encounter it Bob the veterinarian probably has something that will help you."

Second, you could use the player's failure to find the BBEG to change the tone of the campaign to a more reactive one. E.g. the BBEG's plans come to fruition and he seizes power in the city. He knows who the PCs are and issues warrants for their immediate arrest. For the next while they'll be running, sneaking away, fighting soldiers, and hiding from assassins. No clues needed for any of that.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The best solution is probably to find new players. Some of these tactics are downright destructive to a functioning campaign. Attacking NPCs, and whoever can defend themselves is guilty? I'd probably lose a gasket if my players tried something so meta-gamey. You're a better man than I to approach the situation with thoughtfulness, that's for sure. However, if you aren't looking to find a whole new group, might I suggest finding a middle ground between playstyles.

In this case I would take a cue from action thrillers. Deluge the PC group with a constant stream of something going on. Give them lots of options on how to deal with it, but for the most part, they're either being directly threatened or danger is around the corner.

So, for example, take your (a) problem. One of the BBEG's hirelings is acting up. Presumably the PCs are also a thorn in his side in some way. Make that into a plot hook in and of itself. The BBEG tries to trick the PCs into going after the hireling. He wants to set them up to take the fall for killing a traitor in his midst, maybe by tricking them into thinking the hireling is the BBEG, maybe by tricking them into thinking he hired a hit on them. It will depend a lot on more situation details I don't have. But, he sends them after the NPC, and snitches to the town guard that they're going after him. If the PCs take the bait, its a setup. Hopefully (for the BBEG) they kill the guy and get caught. Two birds.

However, there are so many ways for it to turn out depending on how the PCs react. Maybe they realize its a setup and work with the NPC. Maybe they just question him, and the guard shows up coming after them to arrest them. Maybe they instead investigate where their tip off came from and head to the BBEG. PCs are unpredictable, so they could go any which way, but they're your players so you probably have some idea of what they'd do. The key is that things just keep getting worse and worse for them. The guard wants to arrest them. Bounty hunters sniff some gold to be made. They need to find out why they were set up. The guard lets slip that X was their tipoff, so they have that lead. Hit them in the face with leads they can easily follow, and they will because they have to clear their name. Don't make it too difficult. They can find X and clear their name, and it moves them one step closer to finding out who the BBEG is.

I'm thinking something like the Dresden Files where everything just constantly goes wrong for the protagonists, and there's a clock they have to work against as things just keep getting worse and worse. And, if they don't ask the right questions, they get more and more "clues" piling up in front of them until they basically hit a rail that pulls them back into the action only to start getting "clues" again.

I like this kind of thing because immediate consequences are happening. It prepares the players for long term consequences when they can see things playing out like this in the short term. A little intrigue that has immediate effects can help drive home the idea that intrigue isn't boring. Maybe something along these lines would whet their appetite for it and get them thinking about investigation. It might take 3-4 sessions of this kind of action movie-like plot, but I think of it as slowly making them more inquisitive. In the end, that's the problem. They aren't inquisitive. They don't ask questions. So, by throwing problems at them in rapid succession, you create a situation in which the players feel the need to think.

 

[Random Axe]

Nonetheless, I have told the players out of character that the letter mentioning the unreliable employee is an important clue and have encouraged them to read it. So far, no luck.

This is a good tactic for you to use. Derren in post #2 suggested my own first reaction, that if the party doesnt go looking for the Bippy that they know the BBEG wants, then the BBEG finds his Bippy and wins that stage of the adventure. At that point, a village blows up and peasants die, and the party finds out it was because He got his hands on that Bippy. Then, at the end of that session when the books and papers are packed away, I would bring that fact back to the players and ask them outright, "Why didn't you go after that bippy? Why didn't you even try to look for it?" At that point you will initiate the discussion with your players that may allow you insight into why these clues you are leaving don't make it into their heads.

I really have to ask, and trying to not be disrespectful of anyone, what do the players/PCs actually succeed at accomplishing in their sessions? What do they actually do with their game time if not actively trying to thwart bad guys that they know are out there?