What Tumble variant do you use?

[jontherev]

I think it is about more than this though. If it were just the tumble past someone, I'd agree - the problem (for me) comes from the standard PHB rendering that means that any attempt to tumble through a solid line of enemies *always gets past them*. Worst case is you get some AoO against you which could well miss (if you have mobility and are "fighting full defense" (assuming allowed by your DM) you get +10 to your AC against those AoO anyway.

So I think it is the "tumble through" which is too powerful. Roll a 1 and still get through everyone.

Why is this a big deal either? If the enemy would rather smack you than grapple or trip you as their AoO, then that's their decision. DC 25 is pretty high already. My 12th level rogue only has about +15 or 16 to tumble. So, that's about a 50% shot. And, he doesn't have Mobility or Spring Attack. Except in the case of mid-high level rogues/bards/monks who choose to spend a lot of points in tumble (while losing out on other useful skills), it isn't that hard to stop many tumblers from coming through your square, IF you really want to.

 

[hong]

Why is this a big deal either? If the enemy would rather smack you than grapple or trip you as their AoO, then that's their decision. DC 25 is pretty high already. My 12th level rogue only has about +15 or 16 to tumble. So, that's about a 50% shot.

D00d, you aren't trying. A 12th level rogue can _easily_ get up to +20 just from skill ranks and Dex, and +24 with other bonuses. Even if you couldn't get it to +24, you could take skill mastery in Tumble and take 10 all the time. If a skill check becomes trivial, then it negates the point of having to make a check in the first place.

As for Spring Attack: it only works against the guy you're attacking. Everyone else can still whack you. Tumble works against everyone.

 

[Bonedagger]

I use the only one I know. The one from PHB.

Never had a problem with it.

 

[jontherev]

D00d, you aren't trying. A 12th level rogue can _easily_ get up to +20 just from skill ranks and Dex, and +24 with other bonuses. Even if you couldn't get it to +24, you could take skill mastery in Tumble and take 10 all the time. If a skill check becomes trivial, then it negates the point of having to make a check in the first place.

As for Spring Attack: it only works against the guy you're attacking. Everyone else can still whack you. Tumble works against everyone.

D00d, I'm not concerned with maxing out tumble. I didn't say ALL 12th level rogues will have a +15 tumble skill, did I? I just said, I do. He's also multiclassed, so he doesn't have all the skill points of a true rogue, and no skill mastery. So, I have sacrificed my tumble skill for other useful skills. It's not exactly unheard of for even a pure rogue to work on maxing other skills besides tumble. Rogues have, what, like 38 skills or something? I can probably count on 2 hands the number of times he tried to tumble through someone's square over 12 levels. I can't count the number of times he tumbled around folks though. The skill check only becomes trivial if you devote a lot of skill points and/or a special ability to do so... in which case you are giving up skill points that could be used elsewhere. All for the omnipotent ability to bypass the almighty AoO. Why is this a big deal? And please don't bring up the fact that it works against Gods who can see you 5 miles away.

 

[IceBear]

I don't think it's the AoO that people are upset about, it's the fact that regardless of what you roll you *will* tumble past/through someone. The very fact that Monte and WotC offered optional rules to handle tumbling show that they consider the original rule to be less than perfect.

If someone complete fails their tumble check they shouldn't suffer an AoO and *still* make an incredible flip over the Royal Guards.
That's what I have an issue with.


IceBear

 

[jontherev]

I don't think it's the AoO that people are upset about, it's the fact that regardless of what you roll you *will* tumble past/through someone. The very fact that Monte and WotC offered optional rules to handle tumbling show that they consider the original rule to be less than perfect.

Not necessarily. It could be that they decided to offer it because some people complain about it online...to give them an official optional rule to make them happier about it...which is fine.

If someone complete fails their tumble check they shouldn't suffer an AoO and *still* make an incredible flip over the Royal Guards.
That's what I have an issue with.


IceBear

Why not? I have no problem seeing someone cartwheeling through someone in such a fantastic setting, while taking a scrape on the arm. This is hardly any more unbelievable than being stabbed by a rogue in a vital organ (but only taking 20 damage) and doing ANYTHING but trying to stop the bleeding. Or any other number of fantastical events that occur in every combat.

 

[IceBear]

*sigh* I have to be careful when I use the word "believeable". I don't mean believeable in a real world sense, I mean believeable in a game sense.

Normally, the skill rules, as defined in the game, assume that the higher you roll the better you succeed. Thus, I find it unrealistic "in the game rules" that someone who rolls ends up with a -4 on a Tumble check basically succeeds just as well as someone who rolled a 14.

I guess one of my only pet peeves with rpgs is when something is ALWAYS successful or ALWAYS impossible. Yes, I agree with you that a rogue who maxs out his tumbling did so at the expense of other skills so he shouldn't have his Tumbling nerfed to death, but it's my belief that nothing in this world is 100% (besides death and taxes ) and thus there should always be a chance that the rogue *won't* make it past the defenders.

Like I said, it's my pet peeve, but it's obviously a common one.

IceBear

 

[KnowTheToe]

Lets say I have a 12th lvl fighter who takes pride in the fact i can lay smack on anything that moves. I run into a punk human rogue (3 lvl) in a city and he can use spring attack and tumble continually laying Sneak attacks on my back while I fight his companions and dispite a large to hit bonus, I don't even get to swing. At third level with a 16 Dex he has a +10 to his role without skill focus.

As a master swordsman I should be harder to tumble past than an decrepid old man who just lost his let to disease. I like Monte's way, which by quincidence, is the rule I suggested to my DM.

 

[mikebr99]

I think the Problem that IceBear is having (sorry if this is wrong IB) is that tumble is at least crossclassed to everyone... so anyone can throw 2 skill points at it, and even after you add DEX penalties and armour penalities in... the paladin is going to fail the tumble and provoke an AoO... but he still is going to get through a 20ft line of enemies... automatically.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, that's my main beef, plus I feel that while someone's tumbling skill is mostly based upon their own skill, I do think that the experience level of the opponent matters when it comes to preventing the tumbler from getting past without being able to strike at him.

IceBear