What Tumble variant do you use?

[Murlynd's Spork]

Ok, just a variant rule thought thrown out here:

To tumble past an opponent a Tumble check is required of DC 15 + Hit Dice of creature.

To tumble through an occupied square would require a DC 20 + Hit Dice of creature.

A few examples:

1st level Fighter: DC 16 to tumble past
Average 1st level Rogue: tumble 6 (+3 rank, +3 Dex) so he gets a 50% chance to make it past.
Tumbling fool Rogue: tumble 10 (+4, +4 Dex, +2 Skill Focus) so he has a good chance to make it.

10th level fighter: DC 26 to tumble past
Average 10th level Rogue: tumble 15 (+9 rank, +4 Dex, +2 synergy) about a 50% chance.
Tumbling maniac Rogue: tumble 22 (+13 rank, +5 Dex, +2 Skill Focus, +2 synergy) Probably will make it but still a chance at failure.
5th level (TF) rogue: tumble 16(+8 rank, +4 Dex, +2 SF, +2 syn)
has a 50% chance
5th level average rogue: tumble 10(+5 rank, +3 Dex, +2 syn) can be done, but good chance of missing it.

It pretty much stays that way even at 20th level where a Rogue would need to make a DC 35 tumble check against a "Guy who has seen it all". Although the Skill mastery feat kinda offsets it. But someone who has spent such an enormous amount of their "resources" on tumbling would probably be able to do it all day long except against dragon who would just snicker at the idiot doing cartwheels and backflips in front of him.

You could also rule that if it's failed and an opponent successfully hits with an AoO, a Reflex save of DC 10+ damage done must be made or knocked prone (failed by more than 10) or just prevented from making it through (knocked back).

At any rate, it's something else to think about.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Lets say I have a 12th lvl fighter who takes pride in the fact i can lay smack on anything that moves. I run into a punk human rogue (3 lvl) in a city and he can use spring attack and tumble continually laying Sneak attacks on my back while I fight his companions and dispite a large to hit bonus, I don't even get to swing. At third level with a 16 Dex he has a +10 to his role without skill focus.

As a master swordsman I should be harder to tumble past than an decrepid old man who just lost his let to disease. I like Monte's way, which by quincidence, is the rule I suggested to my DM.

If your a 12th level fighter you could stop fighting like an idiot ready an aciton and waste the annoyance, or drop the sword, quick draw a bow, 5 ' step and waste the rogue, drop the bow, and next round retrieve your weapons or quick draw some spares.

And sorry your skill means jack for AoO except where the feat combat reflexes = skill comes in. If you want a system where someone is who is a better fighter gains AoO easier then someone who sucks should be less likely to gain AoO and even fail to get ones we now consider automatic. I wouldn't have a problem with that, I personally think it's lame that a 1st level wizard automatically gets an AoO when people move through their threatened squares. Now if everyone had to make a check to gain AoO even simple ones no problem. For example moving through threatened squares DC10+DEX/Tumble check to gain anAoO. A target moving through your square is DC0+dex/tumble check. If you succeed yeah you can gain an AoO. Also change the rules on moving through an occupied unfriendly square, If someone makes their AoO check by 5 or 10 they not only can get an AoO on you they can stop you.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Should tumble have been a feat that gave a bonus to your AC (+2?) as you jump, flip and dance across the floor? To me that makes more sense, you may take the feat multiple times to decrease the chance of getting hit by the AoO.

There already is such a feat, more or less...

From the SRD:

Mobility [General]

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Dodge.

Benefit: The character gets a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when the character moves out of or within a threatened area. Note: A condition that makes the character lose the Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes the character lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses.

~~~

I'd be all for Tumble checks that scale based on the defender's BAB and/or Reflex Save.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

So everyone is aware that Tumble is broken. I had wondered what others thought.

Actually, according to the POLL the vast majority uses Tumble unmodified, and has had no problem with it. These are just the misfits (munchkins?) unable to live with those rules

Thanks for all the ideas everyone.

 

[KnowTheToe]

What do you think of this option for tumbling.

Tumble: DC for tumbling past someone is 15 + 1 for each 2 lvls (humanoids) or CRs (monsters)
Tumbling past a commoner DC 15
Tumbling past a 3rd lvl warrior or fighter DC 16
Tumbling past a Dire Tiger DC 19
If the tumble roll fails the tumbler takes an AoO, the tumbler makes a fort save DC 10+ damage. If the tumbler makes the save he moves to his intended position, if not he stays in the square where he took the hit. In cases when the tumbler is trying to tumble thru someone the DC is 25 + 1 for each 2 lvl/CR and the tumbler goes to the space before his opponent.

This seems to be fair and makes tougher opponents tougher to tumble past. The DCs will not climb too high and inorder for a rogue to tumble past high level opponents, the rogue will have to keep feeding his tumble skill with a point every couple levels. Tumbling is a grewat concept, but it should not be something you max out at third level and almost never have to worry about it again.

What do you think?

 

[IceBear]

Actually, according to the POLL the vast majority uses Tumble unmodified, and has had no problem with it. These are just the misfits (munchkins?) unable to live with those rules

Thanks for all the ideas everyone.

I am sorry, but I resent that. I am not a munchkin, and I would consider a skill that you can do 100% of the time without failure more in the realm of munchkin than arguing against it.

As I said before, WotC obviously saw a need to publish alternate rules for it so it's not like these are all house rules we're talking about here, but some of them are officially sactioned by WotC and Monte.

And, yes, I can't live with the current rule I've already said that I hate anything that's 100% or 0% - I like to think that in combat there's *always* a chance of the unexpected. It's really the only reason why I use the alternative rule - not to nerf rogues because I think they're overpowered (I don't think that) - but just because I like for there to be a risk when you try anything in combat.

IceBear

 

[KnowTheToe]

Actually, according to the POLL the vast majority uses Tumble unmodified, and has had no problem with it. These are just the misfits (munchkins?) unable to live with those rules

Thanks for all the ideas everyone.

Of course a vast majority follow the published rules. There is not one variant rule or house rule that will be used more than the published rule in the PHB or DMG.

 

[mikebr99]

These are just the misfits (munchkins?) unable to live with those rules

And you probably use Harm as is right???


Everyone is allowed and opinion without being called a munchkin... and besides there are multiple "Published" alternatives... the poll is trying to find out which is the most popular.

 

[HellHound]

I currently use the PHB version, but mostly because I am too lazy to implement the new systems.

But with a tumbling halfling Rogue / Psion (Nomad) / Mind Thief and a tumbling Rhoode Rogue / Practical One, I have begun looking into the alternative rules.

 

[Junkheap]

I am sorry, but i think the most people that play rogues here do not play rogues up to thier full potential. Any rogue worth his salt would take tumble and MAX it out, and it doesnt take long to make a tumble check of 25 trivial. This makes sneak attacking a JOKE.

I started this tumble stupidity in the campaigns i play in, and even I realize that it is dumb.

I can run through a gelatinous cube that takes up the whole path in front of me with a roll of 25??? Give me a break. Its that there NO difference between tumbling through a 20 lvl anything vs a pile of crap. Its still dc 25.

Gee let me protect my king from any attacks coming my way. O no!, the damn rogue ran through my defense NO problem. Ge combat reflex doesnt matter. Even better, the rogue tells the fighter to do it first and take the AOO's and then the rogue runs in.

Its the same problem as in 2e. You could just walk around anything and get to the main Boss as you call it.

The tumble variant we use is the same base dc's except modified by the dex bonus of the defender. We figure more dextrous creatures would make it harder to tumble through. But no matter what the dex, even if its a penalty, the base dc's always stand.