D&D 4E What was Paizo thinking? 3.75 the 4E clone?

[Scrollreader]

I find myself pretty disappointed. I was looking forward to trying the Adventure Path with something other than 3.X. As it is looks like I'm looking forward to whatever up and coming young turk RPG designer/publisher will be 4e's Paizo.

I'm going to go out on a limb here. But Necromancer Games, in partnership with paizo is releasing a 4e adventure path. So it seems to me that Paizo is sort of hedging it's bets, on the adventure path market.
Necro does some quality stuff, especially if the like the 'old school' D&D feel. I'm very excited that they're doing an adventure path, and was worried I would have to choose between Paizo and Necromancer. Now, with paizo's announcement (for which I wish them the best, but have no interest in) I'll definately be picking up the Necromancer Adventure path.

 

[billd91]

I don't understand people who are canceling Pathfinder subscription after the news.

Before the announcement it was already known that Paizo wouldn't have been able to put out 4e material before GenCon...

Yeah, I'm scratching my head on that one too. Did any of these people think the Pathfinder series, as it currently stands, was going to be 4e any time soon? There were always going to be 2 paths released before Paizo even would have had a chance to shift a potential 3rd one to 4e.
Paizo's announcement may change people's plans for the 3rd path, but how does it change plans now?

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Before the announcement it was already known that Paizo wouldn't have been able to put out 4e material before GenCon...

Maybe because people's timeframes are not dependant on GenCon?

I know my interest in a non-4E Pathfinder is pretty much 0, and this means I'll not be taking out a subscription to it any time soon.

Will I get the Necromancer games Adventure Path, that is unsure atm, but at least I can give it a look because it will be 0 work to convert. Though mostly I'm hoping it will be easier to convert some of my old modules (the "Desert" Series for eg) to 4E from 1E than it was to convert them to 3.X.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That's not serious. Unfortunately, $E is.

I would suggest giving some kind of indication that this is not meant serious. Unless you plan to do this only for a short time. I don't think many people will see it as a joke and just see proof that 4E fanboys are just as bad as WotC/4E bashers...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am amazed at the "my players play what I want to GM cuase I said so" comments.

I have run a weekly game group for 10+ years and if I ever said we are playing X cause I said so I would get laughed at. My group may play forgotten realms in D&D or greyhawk settings but then tunr around and refuse Planescape or Ravenloft. If you try and force them they simply dont play or it cuases enough drama to ruin it for everyone.

RPGs are a social exparience where everyone should try and have fun, if your ego tripping then something has gone horribly wrong.

There is a wide spectrum in this regard. There are groups where there is only one guy that is willing or capable to DM, and the other players will play whatever he DMs for them. There are groups that only care about D&D, and will never look outside. Some Groups will never be interested in anything but WotC products. Some groups are experimental and play all kinds of systems. Some groups occassional switch their favourite system (be it AD&D to 3E, or Torg to Shadowrun to D&D). IN some groups, every member has to DM eventually and they will run a shared campaign, or each DM has its own campagin and possibly his own game system (sometimes even with his personal house rules).
Some are mixes of all these. And some might be something I haven't even described yet.

I really don't know which type is more common, but the important thing is: Never believe that what you do is even close to what someone else does.

 

[Bluenose]

I downloaded the Alpha, printed off four copies to spread around my players, and delivered them yesterday evening. Only one opinion so far, and that's a suggestion that we not bother even looking at it - which since the person giving it is as much of a rules junkie as I am says something. It's a disappointing alpha product that doesn't even attempt to address the problems we find with 3.5 (high level play, mostly) and which makes just enough changes that there will be a significant amount of work involved convertingolder material. This isn't to say they can't fix it, but the things I think are wrong with 3.5 require more than tinkering around the edges.

I'll be interested to see how many of the people who denounced 4E over some of it's changes will denounce Pathfinder RPG over the same ones. Sneak Attack working on almost everything comes to mind.

 

[Insight]

Wow I wish I had your group...my group is better than they used to be....but system matters very VERY much to them

My group is pretty open-minded, but we've got at least one person who won't play anything but 3.5 D&D.

I really like Paizo's products, but I think the Pathfinder RPG is going to end up being a net loss. Directly competing with 4E is not a winning strategy. Over time, there aren't going to be enough "3rd ed grognards" to support an alternate game. How many people do you know who are still playing 2nd ed? Or 3.0 without any 3.5 enhancements? Likely, very few.

Once 4E is released, players are going to flock to it. We tend to like new, shiny things, and 4E is about as new and as shiny as it gets. Six months to a year after 4E's release, I doubt you'll be able to find too many 3.5 games going on.

 

[trancejeremy]

I really like Paizo's products, but I think the Pathfinder RPG is going to end up being a net loss. Directly competing with 4E is not a winning strategy. Over time, there aren't going to be enough "3rd ed grognards" to support an alternate game. How many people do you know who are still playing 2nd ed? Or 3.0 without any 3.5 enhancements? Likely, very few.

Well, the thing is, when 1e and 2e died, there was no more support for them anywhere, except fanzines.

New material and a rulebook in print is basically essential to keep a game going. If 3.5 has it, then there is no reason it needs to die. Look at other d20 variants that are still around from other companies. They're apparently enough to support them.

Heck, look at some of the original D&D variants that are still around. BRP for instance, is the backbone of CoC and most Chaosium games, not to mention Runequest, but it's almost entirely lifted from OD&D at its core. (Same 6 stats, only with a d100 skill system). Look at Palladium, that always seemed like AD&D house rules to me.


Anyway, I realize that not hating 3.x is a rarity around here since 4e was announced, but quite a few people are quite happy with it. Considering no one else will be supporting 3.x, I think it's quite likely Paizo will have a large enough audience to survive, if not thrive.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

My group is pretty open-minded, but we've got at least one person who won't play anything but 3.5 D&D.

I really like Paizo's products, but I think the Pathfinder RPG is going to end up being a net loss. Directly competing with 4E is not a winning strategy. Over time, there aren't going to be enough "3rd ed grognards" to support an alternate game. How many people do you know who are still playing 2nd ed? Or 3.0 without any 3.5 enhancements? Likely, very few.

Once 4E is released, players are going to flock to it. We tend to like new, shiny things, and 4E is about as new and as shiny as it gets. Six months to a year after 4E's release, I doubt you'll be able to find too many 3.5 games going on.

Over time, yes. But now? There are probably enough. And Paizo is not rejecting 4E completely. They are just focussing on 3.5 for how ever long it works out for them.
And the problem for them: At this time, they don't know what the GSL will allow them to do or not to do, and they don't have the rules, either. Creating material under these circumstances is hard. Necromancer Games is doing a bold move in going 4E without knowing the GSL specifics and having only some freelancers that know the rules, Paizo is doing a bold move by "sticking" with 3.5 with a known OGL and rules.

If I understand it correctly, Paizo is a company with full-time workers. Necromancer is smaller, and even most of its workers have other income sources (I might be wrong on that?). Necromancer can afford some delays. Paizo not. With them working together, we can have the best of both worlds.

 

[Fenes]

Anyone want to dredge up the intrawebs for folks who "WOULD NOT CONVERT" and still do the old 3.0 version? Any of them still around? How about all those publishers who sold 3.0 stuff ... how much of that sells anymore? It was a SEAMLESS upgrade ... yeah right.

We still play 3.0 in both campaigns I am in, we never bothered to change to 3.5. I do use monsters from 3.5 without problems.

I expect that, given my playstyle, I'd be able to use all my stuff with Paizo's Pathfinder, should I use it, without trouble.

More likely though I'll use it and/or 4E as a ressource to add more stuff/rules to my own 3.0 game.