D&D 4E What was Paizo thinking? 3.75 the 4E clone?

[amethal]

For WOTC "soon" means till recharge 5,6. So, when they roll 5 or 6 they'll release the GSL.

Unfortunately they are rolling on a d4.

 

[occam]

For WOTC "soon" means till recharge 5,6. So, when they roll 5 or 6 they'll release the GSL.

With the way WotC's going, it's looking more like there's a typo in the stat block, and they're waiting for the "recharge 7" to come up.

 

[Shadewyn]

Sorry, DM....

Thanks for the heads-up on the swampland too, I was just about to make Shadewyn an offer. I guess I'll have to settle for the summer house in Greenland now. I bet it's green there...

Well its certainly not chilly like Iceland!

 

[Rauol_Duke]

Score!!!

 

[Shadewyn]

And there's presumably* nothing stopping Paizo starting a new line of 4th edition adventures set in a new "4th edition friendly" setting once the GSL is out.

* assuming the GSL doesn't have some unlikely clause preventing use of the OGL

Here is a thought ... why do modules/settings have to be editions specific really ...

When you buy a module/setting youare purchasing (in my mind)

1) The fast food ease of runnng something without spending hours building it yourself

2) A well written story

3) A nicely drawn map + artwork

4) Predone stats.


=======

I would argue that the first 3 are setting non specific, and that a PDF based publisher could for relatively minor ammounts of cost, support them all.

For Example;

"The Orc and the room of Gaurded Pie!"

Adventure Summary: The players battle an orc for a stolen pie

Plot Hook: The players are hungry or they want lewt from the owner of the pie

Room: A 10x10 room stands befor you with an angry orc and a tasty looking stolen pie lies behind him

Graphics: A loving handcrafted 10x10 room is drawn on what appears to be aged parchement and a sinister looking orc in mid swing jumping over a tasty pie is on the cover of the PDF.

*At this point the publisher cuts and pastes the followig statblocks in so that their website has three versions to download*

3.5
Generic Orc raised to the power of X levels of rogue with a dash of barbarian in order to provide the proper CR for the party/

Pathfinder
Since Barbarian rage and Rogue sneak attack were altered, and the power level of characters is 25% more in Pathfinder the Orc now has Y levels of fighter in addition to balance.

4E
Since there is no such thing as a plain orc and powerlevels may have doubled from 3.5 the following encounter now reads;

Orc Piestealer
Daily: Auto Sucess at thief skills to any target pie in a 100 square range
Encounter: Pie Frenzy in defense of any stolen pie doing 4W damage and stuns on an attack verus fort
At Will: Bakers Revenge gain +4hit versus AC against any hostile target near your stolen pie

=========

Point being ... since when does the mechanics REALLY fundementally alter the story? How many adventures are built on specific rule hooks that do not translate?

 

[interwyrm]

Point being ... since when does the mechanics REALLY fundementally alter the story? How many adventures are built on specific rule hooks that do not translate?

Hear hear!

 

[dmccoy1693]

Point being ... since when does the mechanics REALLY fundementally alter the story?

I don't know about "story", but the can and do fundementally alter characters in that story. I just finished up a campaign where I played a halfling necromancer that hated undead. What did he do? DROP ABILITY SCORES LIKE NO ONE ELSE!!! He was great. Its really hard for a caster to cast spells when his INT suddenly droppes to 8. No matter who you were, you were in trouble if you failed your saves against my Spirit Worm attacks. Clerics weren't even able to crawl away after an empowered split ray of enfeeblement.

Guess what, his entire character concept doesn't exist in 4E since there is no such thing as ability damage.

 

[SSquirrel]

From what I am seeing, Pathfinder is not simply "3.5 reprinted", but is in fact "4e as we wish it had been".....i.e., a 4e that builds on what has come before, rather than a 4e that does not.

But it isn't "4e as we wish it had been". At least not for me. I don't want something that keeps many aspects of things of 3E that I had problems with. Building a house w/a cracked foundation and all that. Other games based on d20 that I really enjoy have some of the same fundamental flaws, but fix others. For example, nothing in Arcana Evolved reduces the Christmas tree factor, but the removal of alignment, drastic lessening of save or die, new approach to what were getting to be dull class options (for me) and the removal of the arcane/divine split, plus a generally more flexible magic system make it much more palatable to me.

I don't care that 4E isn't D&D 3.6. Imagine how much worse the griping about a new edition would be if it were. They are leaving behind a lot of things that IMO were not truly needed in the game and served to lessen the experience of those around the table. Some things are functioning differently (trip to a degree, tho you could likely do a Str vs Reflex attack and trip someone whenever you want) but until I have it in hand I won't know if it's different bad or good. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt tho.

 

[SSquirrel]

I don't know about "story", but the can and do fundementally alter characters in that story. I just finished up a campaign where I played a halfling necromancer that hated undead. What did he do? DROP ABILITY SCORES LIKE NO ONE ELSE!!! He was great. Its really hard for a caster to cast spells when his INT suddenly droppes to 8. No matter who you were, you were in trouble if you failed your saves against my Spirit Worm attacks. Clerics weren't even able to crawl away after an empowered split ray of enfeeblement.

Guess what, his entire character concept doesn't exist in 4E since there is no such thing as ability damage.

I thought level drain functioned like ability damage in 4E. I could easily be wrong tho

 

[JoeGKushner]

Try running this same scenario in Conan d20.

Well... we have to change the orc to some type of proper humanoid or something along that nature and then...

There is far more to many game engines, especially those that don't claim to be generic (and D&D never makes that claim) than merely game stats.

If you're running an old setting, chances are you're not using dragonborn or tieflings. I know some people are. They're not core. They've never been core. Them being core CHANGES fundamental assumptions about the setting.

Ditto for thep lanes.

Ditto for the missing core races/classes.

It's not just mechanics. It's the background feel that those mechanics have been build into over thirty+ years.

Here is a thought ... why do modules/settings have to be editions specific really ...

When you buy a module/setting youare purchasing (in my mind)

1) The fast food ease of runnng something without spending hours building it yourself

2) A well written story

3) A nicely drawn map + artwork

4) Predone stats.


=======

I would argue that the first 3 are setting non specific, and that a PDF based publisher could for relatively minor ammounts of cost, support them all.

For Example;

"The Orc and the room of Gaurded Pie!"

Adventure Summary: The players battle an orc for a stolen pie

Plot Hook: The players are hungry or they want lewt from the owner of the pie

Room: A 10x10 room stands befor you with an angry orc and a tasty looking stolen pie lies behind him

Graphics: A loving handcrafted 10x10 room is drawn on what appears to be aged parchement and a sinister looking orc in mid swing jumping over a tasty pie is on the cover of the PDF.

*At this point the publisher cuts and pastes the followig statblocks in so that their website has three versions to download*

3.5
Generic Orc raised to the power of X levels of rogue with a dash of barbarian in order to provide the proper CR for the party/

Pathfinder
Since Barbarian rage and Rogue sneak attack were altered, and the power level of characters is 25% more in Pathfinder the Orc now has Y levels of fighter in addition to balance.

4E
Since there is no such thing as a plain orc and powerlevels may have doubled from 3.5 the following encounter now reads;

Orc Piestealer
Daily: Auto Sucess at thief skills to any target pie in a 100 square range
Encounter: Pie Frenzy in defense of any stolen pie doing 4W damage and stuns on an attack verus fort
At Will: Bakers Revenge gain +4hit versus AC against any hostile target near your stolen pie

=========

Point being ... since when does the mechanics REALLY fundementally alter the story? How many adventures are built on specific rule hooks that do not translate?