D&D 3E/3.5 What was the original intended function of the 3rd edition phb classes?

[Mannahnin]

Having played a wizard through level 20 in AD&D I can attest that quadratic wizard was a thing in AD&D.

3e made it more of a thing and made it happen at earlier levels, but high level magic-users had a lot of power options in AD&D.

Certainly they did. They also had more limiters on their power, and had to deal with targets having very reliable saving throws.

While high level Magic-Users in AD&D got extremely powerful, between their low HP and the prevalence of great saving throws and sometimes magic resistance from high level foes, said M-Us were not quite as out of hand as 3.x ones would get to be.

Perhaps geometric rather than quadratic.

 

[Undrave]

3e worked off what someone some where termed the Christmas tree effect.

wizards will

Huh... feels like you got cut off there? Was there more?

 

[HammerMan]

Huh... feels like you got cut off there? Was there more?

shoot... i deleted half my post about Int upping items and magic bonuses

 

[HammerMan]

Pre 3e had tons of die to 1 die roll situations.

and the saves were easier to make as you leveled

Save or Die poison was ubiquitous from giant spiders in first level adventures and throughout the game.

yup so where crits that killed you on a dingle hit cause you rolled a 6 on your d10+0hp...

Petrification was save or die on one roll, and against medusas, basilisks, cocatrices, and gorgons it was often more than once a combat.

and again the save (like hp) meant you were less likley to die from it as you leveled...

Lots of spells in AD&D were save or die from hold person to polymorph to disintegrate to finger of death.

yup... and by the time a PC could cast one most monsters had good saves and/or Magic resitence...

Saves went up but there were still tons of die on one die roll situations.

that became less likely as you leveled...



so again if you played 20 fighters (or your group did not you alone) from 1st-12th level in 2e you would find that few died after level 5ish to single hits or single save...

if you played 10 fighters (yes half as many) you would run double the chance of running into a Will Save or di/suck by level 12

 

[Voadam]

yup... and by the time a PC could cast one most monsters had good saves and/or Magic resitence...

Hold person was a second level cleric spell, and if you focused it on fewer targets the spell save got harder.

Second level cleric spells came online at level 3 in AD&D and wisdom could give bonus second level spells starting at 15 wisdom.

"Hold Person (Enchantment/Charm)
Level: 2 Components: V, S, M
Range: 6” Casting Time: 5 segments
Duration: 4 rounds + 1 round/level Saving Throw: Neg.
Area of Effect: One to three
creatures
Explanation/Description: This spell holds immobile, and freezes in places, from 1-3 humans or humanoid creatures (see below) for 5 or more melee rounds. The level of the cleric casting the hold person spell dictates the length of time the effect will last. The basic duration is 5 melee rounds at 1st level, 6 rounds at 2nd level, 7 rounds at 3rd level, etc. If the spell is cast at three persons, each gets a saving throw at the normal score; if only two persons are being enspelled, each makes their saving throw at -1 on their die; if the spell is cast at but one person, the saving throw die is at -2. Persons making their saving throws are totally unaffected by the spell. Creatures affected by a hold person spell are: brownies, dryads, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, and troglodytes. The spell caster needs a small, straight piece of iron as the material component of this spell."

For Magic-Users there were second level Scare, Stinking Cloud, and Web spells with saves that were available from level 3 on.

 

[HammerMan]

Hold person was a second level cleric spell, and if you focused it on fewer targets the spell save got harder.

Second level cleric spells came online at level 3 in AD&D and wisdom could give bonus second level spells starting at 15 wisdom.

"Hold Person (Enchantment/Charm)
Level: 2 Components: V, S, M
Range: 6” Casting Time: 5 segments
Duration: 4 rounds + 1 round/level Saving Throw: Neg.
Area of Effect: One to three
creatures
Explanation/Description: This spell holds immobile, and freezes in places, from 1-3 humans or humanoid creatures (see below) for 5 or more melee rounds. The level of the cleric casting the hold person spell dictates the length of time the effect will last. The basic duration is 5 melee rounds at 1st level, 6 rounds at 2nd level, 7 rounds at 3rd level, etc. If the spell is cast at three persons, each gets a saving throw at the normal score; if only two persons are being enspelled, each makes their saving throw at -1 on their die; if the spell is cast at but one person, the saving throw die is at -2. Persons making their saving throws are totally unaffected by the spell. Creatures affected by a hold person spell are: brownies, dryads, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, and troglodytes. The spell caster needs a small, straight piece of iron as the material component of this spell."

For Magic-Users there were second level Scare, Stinking Cloud, and Web spells with saves that were available from level 3 on.

and again... you as a fighter (and the npc/monsters) got BETTER at resisting this... what part of that are you not getting?

in 3e it was a Will save, that was a bad save for most melee characters, and on top of that was attached to wisdom that was not a needed stat for fighters or rogues so most likely 3rd or 4th best...

the cleric casting this is useing 2+ wis mod for DC and wis is most likely first stat to be bumped... so you get WORSE and they can do it more often (and get a bonus spell at 14th I belive in 3e...

so try again.

Fighters go from high level almost auto make save to having a good chance against fort, an okay against dex and a terrible one against will

 

[Voadam]

and again... you as a fighter (and the npc/monsters) got BETTER at resisting this... what part of that are you not getting?

If you reread my prior statements you might see that I agree that high level pre 3e characters and monsters are more likely to make saves than fail them.

I thought the fact that I was responding to your claim that save or suck spells did not happen until higher levels was clear from the fact I quoted you saying they would not happen until higher levels.

yup... and by the time a PC could cast one most monsters had good saves and/or Magic resitence...

 

[Zardnaar]

The original intent iirc was options and removing restrictions.

From what I heard they didn't playtest past lvl 10 and they playtested like they were playing advanced 2E.

Some of those restrictions existed for a reason.

 

[Voadam]

From what I heard they didn't playtest past lvl 10 and they playtested like they were playing advanced 2E.

From seeing some descriptions of the parties in Monte's 3e playtest games I think there was also a lot of multiclassing going on. Which would cut down the power of 3e casters there.

Its been a while and I don't have sources on the early parties though. Maybe Erik Mona or Sean Reynolds discussions at some point.

 

[Greg K]

From seeing some descriptions of the parties in Monte's 3e playtest games I think there was also a lot of multiclassing going on. Which would cut down the power of 3e casters there.

Its been a while and I don't have sources on the early parties though. Maybe Erik Mona or Sean Reynolds discussions at some point.

Andy Collins had discussed a campaign of his own on his website in which characters could not take back to back levels in a spellcasting class (I don't recall if it was the same caster class or any caster class).