What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Justice and Rule]

Why exactly is a African-American closer to someone from, for example, Nigeria, than a white American?
The culture is different, the problems are different, the religion is most likely different, and so on.

But when it comes to media, the problems with portrayal are often linked because African-Americans are often linked to their place of origin and stereotyped as such.

 

[mythago]

And no, I'm not secretly making excuses for wallowing in misogyny and racism. I am explaining that by setting stories featuring misogyny and racism in made-up worlds we distance ourselves from real history and real minorities and real suffering. If you can't accept that, I have trouble concluding anything less that you invalidating the entire foundation for the fantasy genre. You are of course entitled to that opinion, but please realize what that means. If you can't accept fantasy adventures if they feature injustice and inequality I'm asking you at the very least are open about this.

All right, I'll bite: how does featuring misogyny and racism in made-up worlds "distance ourselves" from real history and real suffering and the real people who were - and in many cases still are - affected by it? Your argument is that because the worlds are made up, nothing in them matters or should matter?

As you say, fantasy is made up. That means we have complete freedom to decide what is or isn't in our fantasy worlds.

 

[Mesero]

But when it comes to media, the problems with portrayal are often linked because African-Americans are often linked to their place of origin and stereotyped as such.

The place of origin of an African-American is America/USA. (Or is that term also used for immigrants?)

 

[Justice and Rule]

The place of origin of an African-American is America. (Or is that term also used for immigrants?)

Their place of origin is Africa in the same way my place of origin is Western and Central Europe. Stop being obtuse. Are you asserting that African-Americans have no stereotypes based on their African ancestry?

 

[MGibster]

Does living anywhere make someone accurately knowledgeable of what life was like some place 200-1000 years ago unless they are gifted with exceptional educational systems? Does living in one country give insight into how people from that country are treated in another they have never visited? Is the goal of diversity knowledge of history, or is it the first hand experience to recognize something that might be a landmine to a modern reader?

There's a whole lot packed into this tiny paragraph. No, living somewhere doesn't make you particularly knowledgable of what life was like there some 200-1,000 years ago. Some dude living in Newcastle upon Tyne in 2023 is living a very different life from someone who lived there in 1080. Even here in Arkansas, the attitudes and behavior of people in 2023 are very different from what my fellow Arkansans believed in 1923. Certainly we have some things in common though, living here today doesn't give me a great deal of insight into how people back then felt.

When it comes to studying history, I don't think it makes much difference whether or not you're from that country precisely because they were so different back then. The past is a foreign country, they do things different. I'm pretty comfortable with a woman from the Orkney Islands making a career studying American colonial history just as much as I am an African American man born in Florida. What difference does it make? The past is equally foreign to both of them. (Okay, maybe it's a little less foreign to them because English is their native tongue.)

As far a diversity of knowledge goes, when it comes to gaming, I don't think most people care about that. When someone announces a fantasy or science fiction game based on African people, very few people ask what the creators know about Africa, but they're awfully keen to know what everyone's race is. You could have a dude who wrote his PhD on the Songhai Empire, but if he's white then it's going to be a problem for a significant portion of the intended audience if he writes an RPG.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I know folks want simple rules, but they don't exist.

We can simplify this somewhat - for example, how many non-Nigerians have deep, serious understanding of Nigerian cultures - say, Masters or Doctoral level study - and are trying to use that knowledge to write supplements for D&D? I'm guessing that's a really short list that would be better treated as individual cases, rather than as a general hypothetical.

So, our general hypothetical is more about amateurs in cultural studies. At that level, knowledge alone is not sufficient to justify profiting off another people's culture, especially when the culture you are part of has been profiting off and suppressing the other people's cultures for some centuries. One would need to do more work to justify the profit.

Now, folks who have the personal connection to the culture in question might not have deep knowledge, but if they want to do a crappy job with their own cultural heritage, that's not your look-out.

I would just prefer we work toward equality here. Having the knowledge necessary to write about a culture is more important, I think, than who the knowledgeable person is and where they come from.

 

[Micah Sweet]

All right, I'll bite: how does featuring misogyny and racism in made-up worlds "distance ourselves" from real history and real suffering and the real people who were - and in many cases still are - affected by it? Your argument is that because the worlds are made up, nothing in them matters or should matter?

As you say, fantasy is made up. That means we have complete freedom to decide what is or isn't in our fantasy worlds.

Yes, but that concept cuts both ways. You can use it to say what can be there as easily as you can say what can't.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There's a whole lot packed into this tiny paragraph. No, living somewhere doesn't make you particularly knowledgable of what life was like there some 200-1,000 years ago. Some dude living in Newcastle upon Tyne in 2023 is living a very different life from someone who lived there in 1080. Even here in Arkansas, the attitudes and behavior of people in 2023 are very different from what my fellow Arkansans believed in 1923. Certainly we have some things in common though, living here today doesn't give me a great deal of insight into how people back then felt.

When it comes to studying history, I don't think it makes much difference whether or not you're from that country precisely because they were so different back then. The past is a foreign country, they do things different. I'm pretty comfortable with a woman from the Orkney Islands making a career studying American colonial history just as much as I am an African American man born in Florida. What difference does it make? The past is equally foreign to both of them. (Okay, maybe it's a little less foreign to them because English is their native tongue.)

As far a diversity of knowledge goes, when it comes to gaming, I don't think most people care about that. When someone announces a fantasy or science fiction game based on African people, very few people ask what the creators know about Africa, but they're awfully keen to know what everyone's race is. You could have a dude who wrote his PhD on the Songhai Empire, but if he's white then it's going to be a problem for a significant portion of the intended audience if he writes an RPG.

Yes, and I see that as a real problem.

 

[Mesero]

Their place of origin is Africa in the same way my place of origin is Western and Central Europe. Stop being obtuse. Are you asserting that African-Americans have no stereotypes based on their African ancestry?

If someone is born and raised in America, thats their only place of Origin.

 

[Justice and Rule]

If someone is born and raised in America, thats their only place of Origin.

That definition kind of dilutes the concept of "Native Americans", but also you avoid the question: Are you asserting that African-Americans have no stereotypes based on their African ancestry?