What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Imaro]

Correction: Google is an imperfect tool. Appealing to it as all that a third-party publisher needs to connect them to potential customers comes very close to saying that advertising and marketing are pointless, since said potential customer base will always be able to find your stuff simply by Googling the theme(s) that they cover.

Naturally, even a casual examination of the topic should make it clear that's not the case.

Correction to you correction. I didn't say the things you seem to be inferring and/or implying I did. I said "wonderful" not "perfect" and I never claimed it was all that 3PP need to connect them to potential customers.

To address some of your other points... just as a search isn't 100% let's not act like your marketing (especially that available to a 3PP ) will always result in a potential customer connecting with a company that produces what they desire. Nothing can guarantee that. D&D is literally the largest ttrpg in the world and there are still people who are just finding out about it today. One of the aspects a business deals with is bad press... If you go into a business that holds a certain stigma you should be accounting for that stigma in your projected sales, targeted marketing, and internet presence... if you don't well that's on you.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not surprised; a lot of players don't care very much for the world-building aspect of the game.

A very unfortunate thing, in my view.

 

[Sabathius42]

What does the snake-guy kidnapping you and you becoming a slave entail? Seriously. Is it ok for slavery to feature beatings? torture? murder? rape? Slavery encompassed all of this so with slavery we're already covering the area that a kobold mugging you does and then kept going... and that's just the tip of the iceberg. So is there a limit when we say slavery is ok or is anything that was done to slaves during slavery open fodder for a game?

EDIT: Also is it open season on players or is this purely a done to NPC thing? What's the recommended age for this product?

There is slavery in Star Wars. Star Wars is not a grindhouse genre of film. Star Wars is considered family friendly.

Yuan-Ti have historically been identified as slavers. Yuan-Tu slavery can be explored in a game as lightly as Anakin's slavery was in SW....or it can be explored as harshly as 12 Days a Slave.

Expecting WotC to have as hard core approach to slavery as 12 Days a Slave is too much. Expecting WotC to never mention slavery ever again is also too much. Somewhere in-between those two extremes is where I believe the proper approach lies.

 

[Irlo]

Good lord, this thread....

My sentiments exactly!

People are responding to posts in isolation rather than in the context of the entire conversation. That context is hard to follow in a thread like this.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, yes, one can reasonably expect folks to update their opinions if they receive new information. One can also expect that TTRPGs won't be conflated with D&D only when useful to make a point.

"Game publishers are being pressured not to do X!"

"Here are game publishers that did X years ago."

"Yeah but I meant D&D/Pathfinder so that doesn't count."

That's not about people being unaware that other games exist.




Well, if we're going to ask "has anyone in the hobby offered the opinion that _______" the answer is almost always going to be yes, but I meant in this discussion.

I didn't say unaware, I said uninterested.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not surprised; a lot of players don't care very much for the world-building aspect of the game.

Oh, I care about worldbuilding but IMO there are sooooo many other verisimilitude breaking things accepted by most worldbuilders (especially in fantasy rpg's)... that more slavery would rank pretty low on my list of things to address. I mean we even have people arguing that it's okay not to address the realities of slavery so how does that corelate with it's absence being damaging to verisimilitude? Just some slavery but not too much??

 

[Alzrius]

Correction to you correction. I didn't say the things you seem to be inferring and/or implying I did. I said "wonderful" not "perfect" and I never claimed it was all that 3PP need to connect them to potential customers.

You didn't expressly say them, no, but when someone says "Google is a wonderful tool" in response to the topic of smaller publishers being marginalized or even ostracized as a result of an outraged minority making it harder for them to reach potential customers, the implication is clearly understood.

To address some of your other points... just as a search isn't 100% let's not act like your marketing (especially that available to a 3PP ) will always result in a potential customer connecting with a company that produces what they desire. Nothing can guarantee that. D&D is literally the largest ttrpg in the world and there are still people who are just finding out about it today. One of the aspects a business deals with is bad press... If you go into a business that holds a certain stigma you should be accounting for that stigma in your projected sales, targeted marketing, and internet presence... if you don't well that's on you.

Nothing can "guarantee" that news of your product's existence will reach the ears of potential customers, no, but we're not talking about guarantees. We're talking about a vocal minority of people who have taken it upon themselves to make it harder for small publishers to reach customers simply because said vocal minority disapproves of what the small publisher has made. In other words, they're creating a stigma, and then working to apply it based purely on their own sense of righteous indignation. Pointing out that that's on them, rather than on the publishers for having the audacity to make something that someone somewhere wouldn't like, shouldn't be a contentious topic...and yet here we are.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Is it? I don't see anyone screaming that Steal Away Jordan is bad and should be taken off the virtual shelves.

Hence the, "to me" in my post. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, nor am I stating opinion as fact.

 

[Umbran]

Isn't that the plotline of every demon and undead hoarde? Kill every living thing?

Not as far as I am aware. Demons and intelligent undead are usually looking to take over the world, not kill every living thing. Unintelligent undead - the zombie horde - is more a force of nature than it is a culture trying for genocide.

But, maybe I'm wrong. If you find WotC or Paizo content centered around demons or undead (as a culture/group, rather than as an individual) trying to destroy all living things, I'd like to know of the example.

 

[Alzrius]

Oh, I care about worldbuilding but IMO there are sooooo many other verisimilitude breaking things accepted by most worldbuilders (especially in fantasy rpg's)... that more slavery would rank pretty low on my list of things to address.

And other people have different opinions, which are no less legitimate than your own.

I mean we even have people arguing that it's okay not to address the realities of slavery so how does that corelate with it's absence being damaging to verisimilitude? Just some slavery but not too much??

That's going to be entirely dependent on the context of the setting in question. There is no one-size-fits-all guidelines when it comes to world-building (beyond the self-evident point of having the setting make sense within its own context).

 

[Imaro]

There is slavery in Star Wars. Star Wars is not a grindhouse genre of film. Star Wars is considered family friendly.

Yuan-Ti have historically been identified as slavers. Yuan-Tu slavery can be explored in a game as lightly as Anakin's slavery was in SW....or it can be explored as harshly as 12 Days a Slave.

Expecting WotC to have as hard core approach to slavery as 12 Days a Slave is too much. Expecting WotC to never mention slavery ever again is also too much. Somewhere in-between those two extremes is where I believe the proper approach lies.

Slavery is a major (some could argue THE Major) component of Dark Sun society...not a one time throwaway plot device. No one is arguing slavery can't be mentioned or exist in D&D but a one liner or reference a group can choose to use vs. your entire world being based around it aren't the same thing...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not as far as I am aware. Demons and intelligent undead are usually looking to take over the world, not kill every living thing. Unintelligent undead - the zombie horde - is more a force of nature than it is a culture trying for genocide.

But, maybe I'm wrong. If you find WotC or Paizo content centered around demons or undead (as a culture/group, rather than as an individual) trying to destroy all living things, I'd like to know of the example.

I can't see an Ultron-like villain, or even Thanos-like, as off limits for D&D. Both wanted genocide at the end of the day.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Slavery is a major (some could argue THE Major) component of Dark Sun society...not a one time throwaway plot device. No one is arguing slavery can't be mentioned or exist in D&D but a one liner or reference a group can choose to use vs. your entire world being based around it aren't the same thing...

Actually, several people have argued that light references to slavery don't take the subject seriously enough and shouldn't be done either.

 

[Imaro]

You didn't expressly say them, no, but when someone says "Google is a wonderful tool" in response to the topic of smaller publishers being marginalized or even ostracized as a result of an outraged minority making it harder for them to reach potential customers, the implication is clearly understood.

And I explained to you that you're inference of what I meant, as opposed to what I actually said was mistaken.

Nothing can "guarantee" that news of your product's existence will reach the ears of potential customers, no, but we're not talking about guarantees. We're talking about a vocal minority of people who have taken it upon themselves to make it harder for small publishers to reach customers simply because said vocal minority disapproves of what the small publisher has made. In other words, they're creating a stigma, and then working to apply it based purely on their own sense of righteous indignation. Pointing out that that's on them, rather than on the publishers for having the audacity to make something that someone somewhere wouldn't like, shouldn't be a contentious topic...and yet here we are.

But... but... freedom of speech. More seriously they have the right as long as it isn't slander, libel, or something similar to espouse their opinion about a product... You're basically arguing that it's ok for this creator to make what he wants but what is said about it must be controlled... What??

 

[Faolyn]

Why do you feel like it's a good enough fantasy buffer from reality to excuse a kobold bandit trying to kill you in a mugging but not apply the same fantasy buffer to snake-guy wants to kidnap you and take you to a hidden desert lair to toil in mine?

Sigh. I did all just explain this, you know.

If you're fighting against a kobold, you're on equal terms with the kobold, or are even stronger than it (at least in games like D&D where your hit points and Strength are going to be higher). You almost certainly have weapons or magic at your disposal and are almost certainly prepared for the fight. (If you have the type of GM that attacks you in the night, then you're probably also the type of player who sleeps in your armor.)

If you've been enslaved, you're automatically the weaker victim. The GM has almost certainly made it so the slavers removed your weapons and spellcasting abilities, unless you were very subtle about them. Is this the type of game you think is fair or fun?

 

[Imaro]

Actually, several people have argued that light references to slavery don't take the subject seriously enough and shouldn't be done either.

That wasn't what was argued. Saying Bugbears are slavers is a light reference that makes no determination of what that slavery entails... it neither minimizes it or seeks to show it realistically. A Dark Sun where the subject of slavery is explained away as they are workers who don't get paid and work all day... yeah that's minimizing. Do you see the difference in approaches?

 

[mythago]

I didn't say unaware, I said uninterested.

So, people who are interested in the whole TTRPG hobby when they want to complain, but disinterested in anything but D&D/Pathfinder when it means they might not be 100% correct in their complaining? Okay.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sigh. I did all just explain this, you know.

If you're fighting against a kobold, you're on equal terms with the kobold, or are even stronger than it (at least in games like D&D where your hit points and Strength are going to be higher). You almost certainly have weapons or magic at your disposal and are almost certainly prepared for the fight. (If you have the type of GM that attacks you in the night, then you're probably also the type of player who sleeps in your armor.)

If you've been enslaved, you're automatically the weaker victim. The GM has almost certainly made it so the slavers removed your weapons and spellcasting abilities, unless you were very subtle about them. Is this the type of game you think is fair or fun?

It may very well be fair to the setting, and verisimilitude is important to me.

 

[Umbran]

I can't see an Ultron-like villain, or even Thanos-like, as off limits for D&D. Both wanted genocide at the end of the day.

Both Ultron and Thanos are individuals, not institutions or cultures.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Both Ultron and Thanos are individuals, not institutions or cultures.

Replace either with the demons or undead you mentioned, and I still wouldn't have a problem.