What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Voadam]

While half naked warrior barbarians are not about sex appeal the way a lot of female chainmail bikini warrior depictions have been, they are pretty foundational and iconic in fantasy warrior depictions since the Frazetta days. 5e barbarians get the Unarmored con as AC bonus for example specifically to support the unarmored warrior archetype.

I remember when playing a viking style 5e bard headed for the skald college I used something like this as my character concept art:

 

[MGibster]

Because a chainmail sports bra would still be completely ridiculous as actual armor?

That's just ridiculous. The advantage of a mail sports bra is in its lightweight flexibility allowing the wearer minimum encumbrance while maximizing her mobility. I'm surprised more medieval warriors didn't wear chain sports bras.

 

[Hussar]

And, again, it’s not about personal taste but about making people comfortable in the hobby.

Pin up art? In a calendar or maybe a novel cover, sure. In rpg book after book after book where the majority of female depictions in the books are chainmail bikinis? Maybe we really don’t need those.

 

[Scribe]

Maybe I just grew up on different stuff, but I think there is definitely a place for fantasy that displays the beauty and athleticism of the human body (both male and female). When I think of a lot of sword and sorcery, men and women both have clothes that are meant to be revealing, even titillating. That isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea on an RPG cover (I don't really do that sort of thing myself on my own books) but I think it has a place in the genre and hobby (and it isn't a horrible thing for an artist or writer to want to do). Obviously it isn't reflecting any kind of practical armor, but not everything in fantasy needs to be practical, historical or even authentic.

Amen.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And, again, it’s not about personal taste but about making people comfortable in the hobby.

Pin up art? In a calendar or maybe a novel cover, sure. In rpg book after book after book where the majority of female depictions in the books are chainmail bikinis? Maybe we really don’t need those.

So is the issue too many RPGs books with pin up art then? Is there a percentage above zero you'd be ok with? Or do you really mean never again?

 

[Faolyn]

Maybe I just grew up on different stuff, but I think there is definitely a place for fantasy that displays the beauty and athleticism of the human body (both male and female). When I think of a lot of sword and sorcery, men and women both have clothes that are meant to be revealing, even titillating. That isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea on an RPG cover (I don't really do that sort of thing myself on my own books) but I think it has a place in the genre and hobby (and it isn't a horrible thing for an artist or writer to want to do). Obviously it isn't reflecting any kind of practical armor, but not everything in fantasy needs to be practical, historical or even authentic.

You are literally saying "there's a place for people to be reduced to objects to be gawked at."

No. That is not cool.

The art you're thinking of is outdated and sexist.

 

[Faolyn]

So is the issue too many RPGs books with pin up art then? Is there a percentage above zero you'd be ok with? Or do you really mean never again?

Why do you need erotica in your non-erotic RPGs?

 

[Micah Sweet]

You are literally saying "there's a place for people to be reduced to objects to be gawked at."

No. That is not cool.

The art you're thinking of is outdated and sexist.

To be fair, the entire fashion industry reduces people to objects to be gawked at. Many, many advertisements do the same. The entertainment industry still hits this pretty hard. That's how they sell stuff. People like looking at attractive people, on any part of the gender spectrum.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You are literally saying "there's a place for people to be reduced to objects to be gawked at."

No. That is not cool.

The art you're thinking of is outdated and sexist.

I am saying it is okay for artists to admire the human form, and for that to be reflected in genres of media.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why do you need erotica in your non-erotic RPGs?

Why i asked the question. Is that sort of art completely inappropriate forever, in any context?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why do you need erotica in your non-erotic RPGs?

It's not about need. Some people appreciate it, some don't. Can it ever be there or not?

Edit: sorry, didn't realize I responded twice to the same post.

 

[Bedrockgames]

To be fair, the entire fashion industry reduces people to objects to be gawked at. Many, many advertisements do the same. The entertainment industry still hits this pretty hard. That's how they sell stuff. People like looking at attractive people, on any part of the gender spectrum.

Like I said this isn't really something I tend to do myself, nor is it what I look for all the time, but there is a place for centering the human physique in this kind of material. Something that captures it well for me is the first Conan movie, where both Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sandahl Bergman have attained these incredible physiques that beautifully display power and grace. Or when Bruce Lee takes off his shirt in jacket and fights bare chested in fists of fury. There is something very aesthetic about the whole fight sequence and about his body in that scene. And I think you can say the same of movies where this is taken in more sensual directions. Movies, art, etc I think they are meant to move us and evoke a response.

 

[Faolyn]

That's just ridiculous. The advantage of a mail sports bra is in its lightweight flexibility allowing the wearer minimum encumbrance while maximizing her mobility. I'm surprised more medieval warriors didn't wear chain sports bras.

A bra should also be breathable and remove moisture. Metal doesn't do either of those things. Cloth or leather does. Also, sports bras are designed to be on the constricting side and keep the breasts from moving around. That would be insanely uncomfortable, especially since chain mail bikini (designed to be sexy, not useful) rarely has any sort of comfortable padding. I don't want a bunch of metal rings gripping my breasts or nipples. I imagine that it would be akin to a really tight, unpadded, chainmail jock strap.

Talk to ten women about their bras, I'd guess that 9 of them say the best part of them is taking them off. You really think female adventurers want to go wandering around in something that uncomfortable that also doesn't protect the vast majority of their body? And it doesn't matter how flexible you are if a broadsword catches you on your bare midriff.

Also, part of what makes a sports bra actually comfortable is its elasticity, which metal--not even fantasy metals--are known for.

I am saying it is okay for artists to admire the human form, and for that to be reflected in genres of media.

Sure--if you're doing a picture of an attractive person who is deliberately posing for a sexy picture.

If you're showing an adventurer who is going around adventuring while wearing a chain mail bikini, then it's idiotic and sexist.

Why i asked the question. Is that sort of art completely inappropriate forever, in any context?

Are you making an erotic RPG? Then go ahead. I won't buy it, but I'm sure someone would. I should hope you'd have art of sexy men and sex NB people in it as well.

Are you painting a sexy picture? Then go ahead. I may or may not buy it, depending on how artistic I find it.

Are you making art for a non-erotic and hopefully non-sexist RPG? Totally inappropriate.

 

[Scribe]

Can it ever be there or not?

Apparently not. What a time to be alive.

 

[Irlo]

It's not about need. Some people appreciate it, some don't. Can it ever be there or not?

Apparently not. What a time to be alive.

Of course it can be there. No one is suggesting that pin-up art or sexy Arnold pectoral pics be prohibited by the Central Fantasy Art Commission.

Publishers should at least be aware of the messages they are sending and of the customers they are potentially losing.

 

[Scribe]

No one is suggesting that pin-up art or sexy Arnold pectoral pics be prohibited by the Central Fantasy Art Commission.

Are you making art for a non-erotic and hopefully non-sexist RPG? Totally inappropriate.

I mean you even liked the post, so...no.

If Conan is going to run around in a hide speedo, then I'm going to have zero issues with a female equivalent and the world will not end.

 

[MGibster]

A bra should also be breathable and remove moisture. Metal doesn't do either of those things. Cloth or leather does. Also, sports bras are designed to be on the constricting side and keep the breasts from moving around. That would be insanely uncomfortable, especially since chain mail bikini (designed to be sexy, not useful) rarely has any sort of comfortable padding.

I was entirely kidding about the advantage of a chain sports bra of course.

If you're showing an adventurer who is going around adventuring while wearing a chain mail bikini, then it's idiotic and sexist.

In the past, I railed against Avalanche Press' series of d20 campaign books for pirates, Egypt, Vikings, King Arthur, etc., etc., because the art they selected on the cover of many of their pulications. They very often featured a large chested woman in very little clothing striking a provacative pose for some reason. Their I, Mordred book about Arthurian gaming is one of their tamer covers since the woman looks like something you might see at a rennaissance fair instead of a Vegas bachelor party. From what I've heard, some of those books are actually pretty good, but I wouldn't purchase one because I found the covers to be a bit vulgar and tasteless.

You're not wrong that chain bikinis are particularly idiotic. That said, I think there's a place for the idiotic in my adolescent power fantasy game. The idiotic doens't have to be everywhere, but there's a time and place for it. And to simply say it's wrong in all context is a bit parochial to me.

 

[Hussar]

So is the issue too many RPGs books with pin up art then? Is there a percentage above zero you'd be ok with? Or do you really mean never again?

Yes, there is a percentage above zero. For one, there's nothing wrong with sexy art when it's appropriate to the scene. If I have a picture of a tavern (to pick a rather random example) and it includes a singer on a stage that looks like Jessica Rabbit, well, fair enough. That's pretty understandable. Context matters.

But, when nearly every armored female character has boob windows and bare midriff, well, that's maybe not a good look.

Again, I know you're terribly concerned about this whole "never again" thing and keep repeatedly asking, but, it's not really productive.

I think these videos say it best:

 

[Micah Sweet]

Of course it can be there. No one is suggesting that pin-up art or sexy Arnold pectoral pics be prohibited by the Central Fantasy Art Commission.

Publishers should at least be aware of the messages they are sending and of the customers they are potentially losing.

@Faolyn does seem to be saying that in almost every RPG, unless I'm misunderstanding her.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, there is a percentage above zero. For one, there's nothing wrong with sexy art when it's appropriate to the scene. If I have a picture of a tavern (to pick a rather random example) and it includes a singer on a stage that looks like Jessica Rabbit, well, fair enough. That's pretty understandable. Context matters.

But, when nearly every armored female character has boob windows and bare midriff, well, that's maybe not a good look.

Again, I know you're terribly concerned about this whole "never again" thing and keep repeatedly asking, but, it's not really productive.

I think these videos say it best:

Is nearly every armored female character as you say? Is this still a huge problem?