What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Micah Sweet]

Yes.

Why would you think differently?

I mean I made the mistake of being offended and saying something which result in a friendship ending row and several years of cyber harassment.

So yeah, I’m pretty careful now not to voice offence.

That is an argument to remove anything that someone might consider offensive from the public eye, because if they might be offended, they definitely are.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, sometimes people are the table also keep their opinions quiet because they want to belong and they don't want conflict with their friends. They bear that burden because they find it worth it, because they'd rather avoid being the squeaky wheel. And that's not to to say you are a bad person or a bad friend, but it absolutely happens and I know I've had to talk to someone about something similar in the past where they didn't raise objection because they didn't want to be perceived a certain way.

In the instant I was talking about, I am quite certain I someone would have said something if they didn't like it (these are people I grew up with who had no problem with dissent, debate or argument over these kinds of issues). But like I said, yes some people will also object to it. That is why it is complicated. You are giving full weight to one opinion within a group but there is a variety there. It isn't monolithic, and I've heard from plenty of people giving all kinds of views on this. So I don't think there is an easy, simple "just don't do X" solution. I also think 'just don't do X' isn't a good idea when you are talking about a hobby where people are being creative with settings, design and ideas. I want publishers and designers to take risks. Lots of the people who you feel would be negatively impact by these risks also want them to take risks and do interesting things. Just to put this in the world of Cinema, I wouldn't want there to not be a Dirty Harry, a Scarface or an Everything, Everywhere All At Once, just because someone might object to the content of those films (for whatever reason). That doesn't mean I am not empathetic (I think if you met me you would find me very empathetic). I just think free expression in creative fields is extremely important. And I also think that can be done in a way where you trust people to be intelligent enough to navigate the optics and get at what is intended with something

 

[Raunalyn]

Saying something because you're offended is one thing...accusing someone of something they didn't do and then twisting and misinterpreting their arguments to reflect them in the worst possible light is another.

 

[Bedrockgames]

No offense, but I don't really see this as being quite the same for most minority gamers. I get what you are trying to do here and that it's well-meaning, but at the same time it's ultimately not the same sort of thing being talked about.

I am not saying it is the same by any stretch (which is one of the reasons I provided two different examples). But I do think it is relevant to the discussion still.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Red Wizards of Thay

The Red Wizards of Thay, colloquially known as the Red Magic Cult in the Eastern Heartlands, were the notorious and nefarious magocratic ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Historically they owed their power to being cruel slavers, demonologists, and arcane...

forgottenrealms.fandom.com

"The Red Wizards of Thay, colloquially known as the Red Magic Cult in the Eastern Heartlands, were the notorious and nefarious magocratic ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Historically they owed their power to being cruel slavers, demonologists, and arcane experimenters, before most of their numbers wholly dedicated themselves into creating a nation of undeath."

I don't see the point of this. Sounds like a great place for heroes. It's an evil organization that runs a government and practices slavery. They're demonstrably the bad guys.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I mean, I think having someone comment on how it is weird directly is different than someone communicating it through a third party. At any rate, I know there are people who probably have played games with sexual violence and had women be okay with it, but I'm fairly sure that it would not convince people to run it in their games, either. I think sometimes people are not as comfortable as you think to talk about such things, and especially with non-minorities.

I can tell you this much - I'm certain that the pushback you're getting from posters on this forum, who clearly love the hobby that they spend additional spare time yapping about it with other enthusiasts, care to make anyone and everyone at their table feel welcome. And that they would ask the necessary questions for any new players joining their table.
Are there bad seeds. Yes. Just like there are bad drivers.

Regarding your shyness about minorities - I'd venture, and I could be wrong on this - but don't think so, that it's more difficult to tell a DM or player you don't like their playstyle than it is to tell them that you'd prefer x feature be removed from the game.

 

[Raunalyn]

I don't see the point of this. Sounds like a great place for heroes. It's an evil organization that runs a government and practices slavery. They're demonstrably the bad guys.

Exactly!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Exactly!

ok, got it. This thread is moving fast.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You keep saying it's "paternalistic", but I find it to be the reverse: unempathetic. I think you miss that what you think you can handle is different from others, and that it is much easier to add that content to your game and make others feel welcome rather than have that sort of content in the game and force others to remove it or simply quietly endure it because they want to belong. It's much easier to add that stuff in rather than take it away.

We might just have to agree to disagree here. I think it takes a great deal of empathy to understand there are nuanced views in different communities. I don't think it is unempathetic to say on the one hand, some people might be offended by something, but there will be others who would consider it paternalistic to shield them from that content (and this is an opinion I have heard plentiful times in conversations with people so I know its really out there). I also do think there is a degree of condescension when we operate on the assumption that certain people can't handle things, or they won't know the difference between something as distinct as Roman Slavery and American slavery (I think most people do understand this stuff). I am not advocating for being rude to people when they are offended, or to be exclusionary, or to not listen. I am saying if you listen, it isn't as simple as you and some others are saying it is.

 

[Justice and Rule]

No offense, but no one attempted to systematically wipe PoC off the face of the earth. So, you're right, it's not the same thing.

Dude, I'm not even sure what you are talking about here. But I will say that, as far as things go, slavery is not quite the Holocaust but still pretty up there.

I'm sorry, but I can't accept the argument that everyone who might be offended is either demonstrably offended, or hiding the fact that they are offended. Is it not possible for people to react differently to different things? Why are we painting with such a broad brush?

Do you really think it's a "dumb" thing that some cultures in the Realms practice or practiced slavery, so we should just make it so they don't?

I think the better question is why do you so voraciously defend the continuance of slavery in the Realms when your best argument is that "It was there before, so we should keep it?"

Red Wizards of Thay

The Red Wizards of Thay, colloquially known as the Red Magic Cult in the Eastern Heartlands, were the notorious and nefarious magocratic ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Historically they owed their power to being cruel slavers, demonologists, and arcane...

forgottenrealms.fandom.com

"The Red Wizards of Thay, colloquially known as the Red Magic Cult in the Eastern Heartlands, were the notorious and nefarious magocratic ruling class of the inhospitable but well-inhabited country of Thay. Historically they owed their power to being cruel slavers, demonologists, and arcane experimenters, before most of their numbers wholly dedicated themselves into creating a nation of undeath."

So would the Red Wizard of Thay not be the Red Wizards of Thay if they were no longer slavers? I'll be honest, I've never really mentioned slavery while using them, but maybe I'm missing a crucial element to their backstory that involves slavery? Or are we just adding that in there because, in short hand, it means they are "really, really bad guys"?

In the instant I was talking about, I am quite certain I someone would have said something if they didn't like it (these are people I grew up with who had no problem with dissent, debate or argument over these kinds of issues). But like I said, yes some people will also object to it. That is why it is complicated. You are giving full weight to one opinion within a group but there is a variety there. It isn't monolithic, and I've heard from plenty of people giving all kinds of views on this. So I don't think there is an easy, simple "just don't do X" solution. I also think 'just don't do X' isn't a good idea when you are talking about a hobby where people are being creative with settings, design and ideas. I want publishers and designers to take risks. Lots of the people who you feel would be negatively impact by these risks also want them to take risks and do interesting things. Just to put this in the world of Cinema, I wouldn't want there to not be a Dirty Harry, a Scarface or an Everything, Everywhere All At Once, just because someone might object to the content of those films (for whatever reason). That doesn't mean I am not empathetic (I think if you met me you would find me very empathetic). I just think free expression in creative fields is extremely important. And I also think that can be done in a way where you trust people to be intelligent enough to navigate the optics and get at what is intended with something

I would have said the same things years ago, but things have changed since then and I just wouldn't say that anymore. I think you do not realize how much minorities temper their opinions around some people simply to avoid conflict. Hitting that moment is pretty damn enlightening, I'll be honest.

If you want publishers to take risks, that's fine. But there's a difference between "taking risks" and just "doing things". I'd rather people go out of their way to make well-considered content than just slapping whatever they can at the wall for the sake of drawing a stir. These sorts of discussions miss that people aren't being stopped from doing so, but that they are being critiqued for certain usages. For example, I continue to critique the usage of slavery in the Forgotten Realms and I find the defenses of "But it's always been there" to be rather bad. If you want to broach controversial subjects, you should have better defenses than "I thought it would be cool".

I can tell you this much - I'm certain that the pushback you're getting from posters on this forum, who clearly love the hobby that they spend additional spare time yapping about it with other enthusiasts, care to make anyone and everyone at their table feel welcome. And that they would ask the necessary questions for any new players joining their table.
Are there bad seeds. Yes. Just like there are bad drivers.

I'd venture, and I could be wrong on this - but don't think so, that it's more difficult to tell a DM or player you don't like their playstyle than it is to tell them that you'd prefer x feature be removed from the game.

This is really not a great argument. I think people probably care more about this than you think, but they are willing to put up with it for friends, because people will put up with a lot for friends. I'm well aware I put up with stuff for people I care about. As it stands, I typically believe people more when they say something is a problem compared to when they say it is isn't for that reason: people are way more likely to be okay with something and avoid conflict because they don't want to lose a friendship over something stupid. That people even comment on it like this tells me that there's teeth to the argument.