What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[cranberry]

Dude, I'm not even sure what you are talking about here. But I will say that, as far as things go, slavery is not quite the Holocaust but still pretty up there.

I was referring to your apparent minimization of the impact of the Holocaust , dude...

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would have said the same things years ago, but things have changed since then and I just wouldn't say that anymore. I think you do not realize how much minorities temper their opinions around some people simply to avoid conflict. Hitting that moment is pretty damn enlightening, I'll be honest.

Again though, the example I was talking about was clearly a case where I had a good sense of the room (and was myself half part of the community in question). I completely understand that minorities don't express their opinions sometimes in order to avoid rocking the boat. I've been in the presence of antisemitism and done so myself (and while I would say I am not a full Jew by any stretch, when people start talking about Jews in a certain way, I do take it personally). There are times you can say something, and there are times it doesn't seem all that wise to do anything. So I get that. But I also think the fact that that happens, doesn't mean you should just assume it is always happening, or that you need to stop talking about the Holocaust at all or not include it in media because it might set someone off. Again, the reason I reacted the way I did to Falkovnia was because it tapped into something that was powerful for me.

 

[Justice and Rule]

We might just have to agree to disagree here. I think it takes a great deal of empathy to understand there are nuanced views in different communities. I don't think it is unempathetic to say on the one hand, some people might be offended by something, but there will be others who would consider it paternalistic to shield them from that content (and this is an opinion I have heard plentiful times in conversations with people so I know its really out there). I also do think there is a degree of condescension when we operate on the assumption that certain people can't handle things, or they won't know the difference between something as distinct as Roman Slavery and American slavery (I think most people do understand this stuff). I am not advocating for being rude to people when they are offended, or to be exclusionary, or to not listen. I am saying if you listen, it isn't as simple as you and some others are saying it is.

Again, you talk about being worried about "paternalism", but I see what you are talking about as being "unempathetic". I'm not talking about "shielding them" from anything because they are forced to live with it in their life, just like victims of sexual assault. It's also not that they can't handle such things, but rather not forcing them to deal with such things. Again, you are making assumptions that this is about protecting them when what it is about listening to them and what they are saying. It's not that they can't handle this stuff, but simply that they often don't want to deal with this stuff. To try and make this example simpler to follow: I'm sure that any woman I game with could deal with an in-game creeper or such, but I don't know a one who actually wants to have to deal with that in a game.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If you want to broach controversial subjects, you should have better defenses than "I thought it would be cool".

but creators aren't lawyers. I don't need a better defense from an artist or writer than I thought it would be cool. I would honestly want more to be going on in many cases, but I am entirely fine with a designer saying "this just felt right". That doesn't mean it was the best choice, maybe there was a better one, maybe the choice was even bad, but it is an honest and authentic choice, which is what I like to get from creative people.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again, you talk about being worried about "paternalism", but I see what you are talking about as being "unempathetic". I'm not talking about "shielding them" from anything because they are forced to live with it in their life, just like victims of sexual assault. It's also not that they can't handle such things, but rather not forcing them to deal with such things. Again, you are making assumptions that this is about protecting them when what it is about listening to them and what they are saying. It's not that they can't handle this stuff, but simply that they often don't want to deal with this stuff. To try and make this example simpler to follow: I'm sure that any woman I game with could deal with an in-game creeper or such, but I don't know a one who actually wants to have to deal with that in a game.

How does having these things in a game product forcing them to deal with them? There are several ways for potentially offended players to avoid products like this, most notably the warning labels I suggested.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Again though, the example I was talking about was clearly a case where I had a good sense of the room (and was myself half part of the community in question). I completely understand that minorities don't express their opinions sometimes in order to avoid rocking the boat. I've been in the presence of antisemitism and done so myself (and while I would say I am not a full Jew by any stretch, when people start talking about Jews in a certain way, I do take it personally). There are times you can say something, and there are times it doesn't seem all that wise to do anything. So I get that. But I also think the fact that that happens, doesn't mean you should just assume it is always happening, or that you need to stop talking about the Holocaust at all or not include it in media because it might set someone off. Again, the reason I reacted the way I did to Falkovnia was because it tapped into something that was powerful for me.

I can't speak for you and your experience, I can only say that the Jewish gamers I play with would probably be very squicked out by something like that being a mainstream setting.

 

[Kaodi]

Say for a moment that we all agree all references to slavery must be purged from RPGs; what do we do with dominate, the school of enchantment in general, curses, some forms of undeath, and necromancy in general?

 

[Justice and Rule]

How does having these things in a game product forcing them to deal with them? There are several ways for potentially offended players to avoid products like this, most notably the warning labels I suggested.

Why put warning labels when you can just remove something if it's not a big part of the setting? Still don't have a good answer for this sort of thing other than "What if we really, really want to play with slavery?"

 

[Bedrockgames]

I can't speak for you and your experience, I can only say that the Jewish gamers I play with would probably be very squicked out by something like that being a mainstream setting.

To be clear about the content here, it didn't feature the holocaust itself. But in Falkovnia demihumans were rounded up and branded as property of Vlad Drakov and there was a very WWII Hitler vibe about it (just posting this for clarity).

 

[Justice and Rule]

Say for a moment that we all agree all references to slavery must be purged from RPGs; what do we do with dominate, the school of enchantment in general, curses, some forms of undeath, and necromancy in general?

Seems like a bad hypothetical given that no one is saying this. Given the history of this thread and hypotheticals, why don't we just stick with what we are actually talking about instead of inventing things to get mad at?