What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Umbran]

I'm not sure I want the part of the market that thinks the illustrations in the current any PHB could be "dangerous", in the game. Thanks. At least not if they are going to want to change it to fit their world view.

I was referring not to today's art, but to what overall is often referred to as "Disney-fication". This shift has been a process, not a one and done, not limited merely to art direction, and it has been going on since 3e was released.

 

[Maxperson]

Nah, I think that's too big an ask. You aren't going to be able to prove that, and there are some valid reasons for generally not featuring slavery.

I'm all for it not being part of a core setting like Forgotten Realms, even okay for companies like Paizo deciding not to have it as a plot device anymore. Or WotC deciding not to release Dark Sun because of it, I'd rather than than them release a sanitised Dark Sun, and I can appreciate WotC want to generally aim at causing least offense.

So it's better to assume something that has a significant chance of being wrong was the reason that diversity increased, and then to use that as a reason for the removal of slavery? There are also equally valid reasons for not including murder and mass murder, but those still abound. We have assault and battery a plenty. Kidnapping all over the place. Hell, 5e Eberron suggests terrorism and genocide on page 9.

"Certain situations demand straightforward decisions. If Emerald Claw cultists are about to detonate a necrotic resonator that will kill half of Sharn, they need to be stopped."

This is a game and bad things happen in it for PCs to stand against(or not if a particular table wants to play that way).

 

[Umbran]

To be fair, your version is leaning hard in the other direction.

Mine is focused on business outcomes, like you'd expect a business to be.

 

[Bagpuss]

Sure. And I've gamed with a number of women going back to 1e who liked them. Not all of them, but more than a few. Can you show that more women disliked those pictures than liked them, and if so that it was a significantly greater number?

Again highly unlike anyone can prove that, so why ask? Also I know plenty of men would have liked those images (myself included), do you think removing them has caused the men to leave the hobby in the same number as women that may have joined it?

Or do you think that while people may well have liked the images, they weren't in the hobby for that alone, and removing them didn't really bother them as much as it bother the women joining.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Mine is focused on business outcomes, like you'd expect a business to be.

I would prefer to focus on creative outcomes, like you'd expect people who make creative things to be.

 

[Umbran]

There are equally valid reasons for not including murder and mass murder, but those still abound.

Tu quoque?

If the concern is that removal of slavery means a removal of "all bad things", clearly, that's not happening, right? Other bad things abound.

 

[Maxperson]

Again highly unlike anyone can prove that, so why ask? Also I know plenty of men would have liked those images (myself included), do you think removing them has caused the men to leave the hobby in the same number as women that may have joined it?

Or do you think that while people may well have liked the images, they weren't in the hobby for that alone, and removing them didn't really bother them as much as it bother the women joining.

I truly think it didn't matter one way or the other. What I believe is that it was the men of the time, as well as the environment of the time that kept most of the women from playing the game. My 1e group had 1 woman play and my 2e and 3e groups had several. We invited many, MANY more to play, but most women thought it was silly or just plain had no interest in even trying it, no matter how we described it or tried to convince them to give it a shot. They preferred to engage in those things that the era said women should find interesting and were raised to participate in. Not one of those we invited said, "Sure I'll give it a shot." and then backed out upon seeing the pictures. Or even mentioned them.

 

[Umbran]

Sure. And I've gamed with a number of women going back to 1e who liked them. Not all of them, but more than a few. Can you show that more women disliked those pictures than liked them, and if so that it was a significantly greater number?

Now, this is a poorly positioned question. You know darned well we don't have that data, either way.

The real question is whether WotC had feedback enough to suggest this was a good move on their part. We, not being in WotC, don't know the answer to that either.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Tu quoque?

If the concern is that removal of slavery means a removal of "all bad things", clearly, that's not happening, right? Other bad things abound.

Then why single out slavery for removal? Plenty of people are made uncomfortable or unwelcome by references to other forms of violence. Why pick some to remove and leave others in?

 

[ilgatto]

That C&C Castle Keeper's Guide's cover is awesome.
I'm not sure what spell the victim in the fiend's hand is casting though.

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hawk?