What were the 3 software developers ordered to cease and dissist?

[Leopold]

Re: Re: minor update from mynex..pass the word along.

However, one thing that is not in the SRD that is kind of necessary for a character generation program is Table 3-2 on p.22 of the PHB. Shows, XP, max class and cross class skill points (these may be somewhere else), when feats are rewarded, and when ability score increases. You can't use that information in an OGL product or a d20 product.

tables are copyrighted, formulas are not.

As I see it PCGen can go a couple of routes.
1) Thumb their nose at WOTC and all d20 companies and continue on. They may not even be breaking any laws by doing this since game mechanics are not copyrightable.
2) Get permission from every copyright holder before using their material.
3) Separate everything into data or code. Release the data as d20 or OGL and release the program under whatever license they want to.

2 and 3 have been done since day one. Doing 1 will bring heat on not only the PCGen project but on anyone that does ANY software related to WOTC in the future. For the future of PCGen we will continue to do 2 and 3 which has been an established practice.

 

[Twin Rose]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Three companies?

Of course if you release under OGL or d20 you have to follow the license. He was not saying that. He is saying that it is debatable if you have to use the OGL. Since game mechanics are not copyrightable it is certainly up in the air about if you can develop D&D software (or other D&D material for that matter) without using the d20 license or OGL. The record companies litigation against Napster was much more clear cut than this, and look how long it took, how much money the record companies used up, and how ultimately ineffective that was. Using d20 or OGL gives you a reasonable assurance from WOTC that they will not sue you. Just because you do not use the OGL or d20 doesn't mean that you are breaking the law.

If there was any debate to the matter, this thread wouldn't even be here. Why? Because they were told that even though they thought they weren't under the OGL, they had in fact accepted the terms by using Open Content. Open Content is NOT Public Domain - you can't use it without following the license.

It worked out for the guys, too, sincle they were given a thirty day cure period that they might not have been granted otherwise.

 

[Zulkir]

I think it's about time that WOTC/HASBRO sold D&D to somebody who cares about the product, won't fire off the designers and put creative decisions in the hands of business managers, and who can see profit as meaning 'any amount left over after costs have been subtracted' as opposed to 'any amount, after cost, that rivals the GNP of a third world nation which ensures the executives a new 100 foot boat and house in Malibu.'

Its characterizations of me, like this, that just make my day.

AV

 

[Knightcrawler]

PCGEn and WotC

Sorry about that characterization Anthony. Some people have gotten carried away before they know all the facts. I am grateful that WotC is working with PCGen.

Its just that many of the rabid fans remember the old days of TSR were it seemed that it was run for and by gamers. Of course thats also why they almost went under and were bought. A little more business sense brought into the mix allowed our beloved game to grow and survive.

The generalizations that these decisions are being made by "bankers" and "penny pinching businessmen" do nothing but impede the lines of communication.

Not all of us think your a money grubbing souless monster.

Knightcrawler
PCGen LST Monkey

 

[Knightcrawler]

Anthony, Question on PCGen

Anthony, do you have any information that you can part with about the on going talks between PCGen and WotC. It would be interesting to get some reports from the WotC side of things.

Knightcrawler
PCGen LST Monkey

 

[Nathanael]

It wasn't pointed at any one person in particular, but since you're feeling singled out, answer this:

What is WOTC doing to discourage this image?

...Planning to lay off more design employees and give their creative duties to executives?

....Planning to cut a few more lines that customers have invested in, but not enough for 'corporate sized profit margins?'

In the present reality of top heavy corporate execs fattening themselves at the expense of employees, customers and the economy, that's not an unreasonbable question.

Hey, you can prove me wrong right here. Promise the people who bought ETools that it won't be cancelled in the next 90 days and will get full support to fully implement the rules, including easy and complete class implementation and add ons for all of the supplements. I know you can't do that. Not that you personally won't, but that you're bosses won't allow it as it would mean that they might actually have to do what they say they will for once...

 

[Nathanael]

And Knightcrawler, TSR didn't go under because of some 'gamers for gamers' mentality. Exactly the opposite. But I'm not going to explain that here. There's plenty of info on that almost anywhere you care to look...

 

[smetzger]

Re: Re: Re: minor update from mynex..pass the word along.

2 and 3 have been done since day one. Doing 1 will bring heat on not only the PCGen project but on anyone that does ANY software related to WOTC in the future. For the future of PCGen we will continue to do 2 and 3 which has been an established practice.

Argh.... I am tired of you guys saying that you got everyones permission when you did not. You did not get permission from the netBook copyright holders. You may have gotten permission from the netBook of Feats publishing crew, however, they are not the copyright holders. You in effect are trying to say that you did number 2 when in fact you did number 1. I don't mind if you do number 1, just don't lie about it.

 

[smetzger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Three companies?

If there was any debate to the matter, this thread wouldn't even be here. Why? Because they were told that even though they thought they weren't under the OGL, they had in fact accepted the terms by using Open Content. Open Content is NOT Public Domain - you can't use it without following the license.

Wrong, you can use open content however you want to you just have to follow the copyright rules. If you include the actual license then you must abide by the license. For example, WOTC uses its SRD without following the license because they own the copyright. e-tools is not a d20 or OGL product just because it uses OGC material, WOTC has given FLUID the right to use their copyrighted material.

WOTC gave them time not because they had to but because they chose to, and its probably alot easier to try and work with an amorphose not for profit product.

 

[francom13]

Hi smetzger,

What I think Leopold means to say is they went and got permission from all the distributers of said products included in PcGen except maybe WotC. WotC permission was fuzzy if I remember correctly.

My guess would be now they realize after talking WotC that they actually needed the copyright holder's permission not the distributer's. This would be why they removed all the lst files while they get things correctly approved.

-matt