What Were They Thinking? Worst Comic Ideas.

[WizarDru]

I disagree...there is no necessity in the fact that comics are held to a lower standard. The only grain of truth in that statement is that the comics of today deliberately do not aim higher because to do so would be to create a product that falls outside the range of what is expected of the omic format...which would, almost by definition, be something that would be lacking in profit to such a large degree that it could not survive.

While I respect Scott McCloud, I tend to think of him as something of a idealistic dreamer. That said, I think there are loads of problems with holding comics to the same standard as straight literature.

For one, it's unfair to do so. How can one hold Brian Michael Bendis' Torso to the same standard as Claremont and Byrne's Dark Phoenix Saga? Which is better: James Kochalka's Little Mister Man, Jeff Smith's Bone, Wolfman and Perez's Teen Titans: Judas Contract, Gruenwald and Starlin's Warlock, Moebius' Blueberry or Dave Sims' Cerebus: Church and State?

A big part of the problem is that we neither have a standard by which to judge, and no established form of criticism, something that every other medium has in spades. The only existing legitimate critical body that exists for comics is the Comics Journal, a biased and fairly flawed magazine that often tries to distance itself from it's own medium as much as possible. This problem is made worse by the fact that comics are rarely the product of one person, so it becomes more difficult to review and judge. Was the comic's failures those of Warren Ellis, or Frank Quitely? That's assuming you can even make those distinctions. In the Lee/Kirby days, Lee would give a base idea, Kirby would plot and draw the issue with suggestions for dialogue or concept, and then Lee would create the actual dialogue. How do you separate the contributions for critical review? Lee would often rewrite whole sections of dialogue, sometimes in defiance of Kirby's original idea, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. Kirby did similar things, vis a vis the Silver Surfer. And since they were working on a time schedule, there was no way for Lee to commision new pieces without the surfer...he was stuck with him.

Which is not to say that I don't understand what stevelabny is saying about the readership forgetting...I'm just not sure that it holds true, anymore. Kids aren't reading comics anymore. Readership is down, distribution is a mess and precious few titles are of a sort that I would approve for my kids to read until they're considerably older...and since they're so expensive, few kids can afford them, regardless. Therefore, a vicous circle emerges: kids can't afford to buy comics, so they don't read them. The core market of adults that comics are currently catering to create the sort of environment which perpetuates the situation. The few exceptions to this rule are, ironically, comics based on the animated versions of the comics, such as Batman Adventures.

That's why the ultimate line has proven to be such a success. It's the Marvel universe, without all the clutter. Imagine a new reader trying to jump in to Spiderman during the 'spider-clone' nonsense. Free comics day is certainly a turn in the right direction, but I don't think my kids will ever enjoy comics the way that I did/do...and that's a shame.

 

[Arken]

Sorry but I've neer collected comics, however like a dutiful geek Iknow most of the story lines/watched the TV versions/picked up on the stories without actually reading the comics. However quite a few years ago (maybe 6 or 7 I think) I visited a cousin over the summer that did collect comics and so I'd just like to contribute...

What ON EARTH was that thing where Magneto and Prof X fused into one super powerful evil being that resulted in an all marvel crossover and eventually opened a rift in space and time and then (for who knows what reason) all of the superheroes present decided that teh only way to fix the rift was to jump into it(Captain america, spiderman, X-men, Hulk, Fantastic four and some others I think).

Then it got all weird and it collided with the DC universe or something and Robin was dating Jubilee and Peter Parker was asking out Lois Lane and then it got stranger still and Wolverine was fused with the character of Batman as a single entity, and the same happened with Captain america and Superman and others.
I only managed to read the end of the marvel side of whatever was going on and didn't actually get to read any of the crossover stuff (just adverts for what was coming) but it did all seem very strange...

 

[danzig138]

but I don't think my kids will ever enjoy comics the way that I did/do...and that's a shame.

My son, about 9, has absolutely no interest in comics. My daughter, 8, has shown some slight interest, but it seems to be an on/off thing. I'm working on making it a family activity, or at least a father/daughter bonding thing, reading comics together, but I can't seem to spark her interest any more than it is. Both children are good readers, but superheroes and the like don't appeal to them. I'm trying to figure out why. . .what's so different in their experience from mine. I loved superheroes. . .

 

[Taren Seeker]

My son, about 9, has absolutely no interest in comics. My daughter, 8, has shown some slight interest, but it seems to be an on/off thing. I'm working on making it a family activity, or at least a father/daughter bonding thing, reading comics together, but I can't seem to spark her interest any more than it is. Both children are good readers, but superheroes and the like don't appeal to them. I'm trying to figure out why. . .what's so different in their experience from mine. I loved superheroes. . .

Probably because when you were 8, you would read comics, talk about how awesome they are, and then pretend to be superheroes with your buddies, which is cool.

Whereas your son/daughter are reading them, talking about them and pretending to be a superhero with their DAD, which is lame.

Seriously though, my nephews are the same. We can talk about videogames, Lord of the Rings, cool cartoons, but comics? Their friends aren't into them, neither are they.

 

[stevelabny]

I don't see it as holding comics to a low standard. Not at all. Comics are held to unrealistic expectations of continuity. Superman, Batman, Capt. America, Green Lantern, and so many others have been around for 60 or 70 years. The Marvel line has been around for 40 years. Their writers and artists have changed countless times. Name a television show, novel, or movie that has had to try to uphold some sort of continuity for this long a time? Star Trek, perhaps? But then, Star Trek had numerous casts spread out over different points of time.

Youre looking at the lack on continuity AFTER the fact and deeming it impossible. There would have been NOTHING difficult about it if it was done from the beginning, or if it was done after "Crisis" or "Zero Hour" or the still-to-come Marvel mega-crossover of the same type.
I cant speak for the Golden Age. Haven't really read anything more than the original stories of supes and bats. I dont know how well Golden Age continuity was kept, so I'll jump straight to the sixties and the Silver Age.
Marvel had something very close to perfect continuity (since most were written by the same guy) , even if the characters werent aging in real-time, you could still tell they were slowly maturing and getting older. DC on the other hand already had its hands full trying to explain why some golden age characters were completely different people and others were the same but with changing personalities, so they invented Earth Two.
This was the first sign that even lowly comic editors had realized that "the jig was up" comic fanboys were apparently gonna stick around a little longer than previously expected, comic newbies were a little bit more intelligent than expected, and there was clearly a call for things to MAKE SENSE even if the stories were "JUST ABOUT" stupid superheroes
By the time comics got to the 1980s, both universes were fraying.
Marvel retconned a few origins and just kindve ignored their problems.
DC, carrying the extra 20 years and Earth 2 baggage opted for something more severe. Crisis. This was supposed to completely remove all continuity problems BUT in a complete WTF moment, they rebooted some titles but NOT all of them. Some books seemingly started over, some seemingly wiped their past clean but continued normally, some just kep going as if nothing changed at all.
How they thought Crisis would be a good idea WITHOUT every editor and writer onboard,i dont know.
But this failure led to more time-spanning mini-series trying to fix continuity until they got to Zero Hour which actually made a strict 10 year time frame for the DC Universe. From the origins until Zero Hour was ONLY TEN YEARS. All of the original characters are 10 years older, all the rest have aged depending on where their first appearance was in the new official timeline. and the legion of super-heroes future timeline was completely wiped out as a side-effect. oh well.
Since Zero Hour, wonky aging has continued. some characters age, some characters dont, and christmas happens at least 4 times a year.
Marvel can't make up its mind how to deal with the porblem. They know individual ret-cons annoy people, but they see how Crisis and Zero Hour failed and are afraid of that route too. So they introduce the ultimate line as a pseudo-solution and try to please everyone.

So, its CLEAR that DC and Marvel both admit that there is a problem.If they would have planned this out logically in the BEGINNING this problem wouldnt exist. If they wouldve "fixed" the problem and then stuck by their fix, it would have worked.

Heres how I would do it....
Why is Earth so importnat in the universe? Why are there so many super-powered beings? Why has the timeline been all screwed?
Spend a year or two...drop some hints, make some prophecies, show off SOMEONE wondering why nightwing had aged so much more than other dc characters or how kitty pryde got old enough to do "adult" things (like sleep with pete wisdom) but somehow reverted back to 16. (making pete wisdom what exactly?) Whether its a robot questioning his logic circuits or dr.strange feeling the ripple of deja vu, or a brand new character with "the sight" doesnt matter... start going out of your way to point out the inconsitencies.

Then bring the crossover into play. Simply put... the mainstream Marvel or DC timeline has been tweaked by a time-guy (pre-existing hero or villain preferably)
so that these people, with these powers would wind up HERE AND NOW.
it doesnt have to be any more convoluted than that. The more ridiculous your timeline is (hawkman, i'm looking at you) the more important the role you play.
All of a sudden we know WHY these people have been so messed up.
At the end , the time-guy says his work is done, and tells the heroes that time will return to normal.

Now we go behind the scenes to the editors. they have to decide how this is going to work. Does EVERYONE age naturally. Do only some people age? These people ARE super-powered. You can easily say that any/all of them age slower or not at all. The problem is with the all to human supporting casts. So I wouldnt slow all the heroes aging and have them watch their friends get old and die. But i would do it in certain circumstances (Captain America for one)

Then you hire a "continuity editor". His job is to read every comic the company releases and keep a database of every characters whereabouts and to make sure the timeline is running smoothly. No more unexplained "6 month jumps" in one title unless theyve fallen 6 months behind the others. Have a longer or shorter story-arc than usual? no problem. just work it out with the continuity editor first.

You ask how many tv shows have to deal with continuity this long...and again I point out the obvious answer DAYTIME SOAP OPERAS. And they keep themselves fresh and exciting by letting go of characters when they need to. Holding on to "young" Peter Parker for because "old" Peter Parker isnt interesting is insulting to the writers. How can you predict how exciting Peter's kids will be? They might be more interesting, they might be less interesting... but you work these things out as they come, and each generation will surely pick their own favorites. Just like on daytime soap operas.

It CAN be done, it HAS been done, Marvel and DC are just too fond of the word "iconic" like if it means something to non-comic readers. Non-comic readers dont care if its bruce wayne or peter parker behind the mask or if its someone else. Suprisingly enough all the liscenses that are sold are for the mask, not the man behind it.

 

[Silver Moon]

Whereas your son/daughter are reading them, talking about them and pretending to be a superhero with their DAD, which is lame.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one, my 5-year old loves running around with a towel as a cape and I encourage it! I've been reading Teen Titans to my kids (ages 5, 8 and 10) for a few months now, and we are all enjoying it. I started with the original 1960's and 70's series. We are now into the excellent Wolfman/Perez run in the early 80's. And since I have a collection of around 12,000 comics it is probably good that they enjoy reading them.

 

[stevelabny]

While I respect Scott McCloud, I tend to think of him as something of a idealistic dreamer. That said, I think there are loads of problems with holding comics to the same standard as straight literature.

For one, it's unfair to do so. How can one hold Brian Michael Bendis' Torso to the same standard as Claremont and Byrne's Dark Phoenix Saga? Which is better: James Kochalka's Little Mister Man, Jeff Smith's Bone, Wolfman and Perez's Teen Titans: Judas Contract, Gruenwald and Starlin's Warlock, Moebius' Blueberry or Dave Sims' Cerebus: Church and State?

A big part of the problem is that we neither have a standard by which to judge, and no established form of criticism, something that every other medium has in spades. The only existing legitimate critical body that exists for comics is the Comics Journal, a biased and fairly flawed magazine that often tries to distance itself from it's own medium as much as possible. This problem is made worse by the fact that comics are rarely the product of one person, so it becomes more difficult to review and judge. Was the comic's failures those of Warren Ellis, or Frank Quitely? That's assuming you can even make those distinctions. In the Lee/Kirby days, Lee would give a base idea, Kirby would plot and draw the issue with suggestions for dialogue or concept, and then Lee would create the actual dialogue. How do you separate the contributions for critical review? Lee would often rewrite whole sections of dialogue, sometimes in defiance of Kirby's original idea, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. Kirby did similar things, vis a vis the Silver Surfer. And since they were working on a time schedule, there was no way for Lee to commision new pieces without the surfer...he was stuck with him. .

Um, this baffles me. Comics shouldnt be critically reviewed as straight literature, they should be reviwed as a tv show or movie. Both of which have numerous people contributing to the finished product in different ways. And all other mediums, including novels span multiple genres so YES you can review Church and State the same way you review the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Which is not to say that I don't understand what stevelabny is saying about the readership forgetting...I'm just not sure that it holds true, anymore. Kids aren't reading comics anymore. Readership is down, distribution is a mess and precious few titles are of a sort that I would approve for my kids to read until they're considerably older...and since they're so expensive, few kids can afford them, regardless. Therefore, a vicous circle emerges: kids can't afford to buy comics, so they don't read them. The core market of adults that comics are currently catering to create the sort of environment which perpetuates the situation. The few exceptions to this rule are, ironically, comics based on the animated versions of the comics, such as Batman Adventures.

That's why the ultimate line has proven to be such a success. It's the Marvel universe, without all the clutter. Imagine a new reader trying to jump in to Spiderman during the 'spider-clone' nonsense. Free comics day is certainly a turn in the right direction, but I don't think my kids will ever enjoy comics the way that I did/do...and that's a shame.

and quite simply, this comes down to advertising. cant want what you dont know exists. yes, comics in the golden and silver age got by without it, but they were in every corner newstand and there were aa LOT less things vying for the kids attention. many of the people i know who got into comics in the 80s (like me) were first introduced to them through the gi joe comic... which had commercials on tv.

Free comic book day is a FAILURE. nobody knows it exists outside of comic fans. and even knowing that the industry isnt going to advertise it, local stores couldnt be bothered to hire a kid for a day to stand out front of the movie theatre showing spidey or x2 and hand out flyers to the mainstream. GAH

 

[Kesh]

I admit to a certain fondness for Bane. He was basically a dark side Doc Savage. Complete with a similar supporting cast. Your idea of new characters isn't totally true with Azrael. Unless you mean to say a character around for two years is still considered 'new'.

But then, if anyone was going to beat Bats it's someone he doesn't know. Batman plans obsessively and knows all his usual foes so well.

Bah. I couldn't stand Bane when he was introduced, because it took one of my favorite Batman stories and made it silly.

Venom was a storyline from the Legends of the Dark Knight comic. LotDK was one of the first 'adult' titles DC did (non- Comic Code), and all the stories were essentially "What If...?" concepts. They didn't happen in the continuity, because quite often they involved material that was either supernatural or just too graphic to include as part of his history.

They violated that with Bane. Venom was a story about Bruce Wayne being tricked into using a new kind of steroid, when he found he wasn't strong enough to save a child's life. Of course, it was highly addictive and increased aggression... turned out to be part of a rather nasty 'super soldier' program being developed by unscrupulous people. The story was one of Bruce dealing with addiction, his own obsessive nature and the violence inherent in being a vigilante.

The writers of the main titles then took this, and gave us Bane. They declared Venom to be a canon story, and Bane was pumped up on the drug. Instead of the way it was portrayed in LotDK, it became this weird serum that made Bane a hulking, inhuman thing that was just rediculous.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Coming in late on this (and no I haven't read all 6 pages of the thread but I want to play too!) but my least favourite comic book moment was the ill-fated 'New Universe' put out by marvel in the mid-80's. About a dozen titles were launched simutaneously and some many of them were complete crap. Only 2 ever stood out to me as somewhat impressive;

Star Brand (a man is given a powerful weapon in the form of a tattoo from a dying alien - the weapon gives him super strength, flight but now other aliens want it for a great war - actually better than I'm making is sound here)

DP-7 (Stands for Displaced Paranormals - 7) a group of average people suddenly find themselves developing strange abilites after a 'White Event' in which the entire earth is bathed in a white light for a brief moment. The powers were interesting in that they all had real drawbacks. The 'speedster' of the group had to eat constantly as his accelerated metobolism put a tremendous drain on his body. The 'muscle' guy was occasionally wracked by pain as new muscles suddenly grew in. I liked it and it lasted the longest at 36 or so issues.

Some of the crap included;

Kickers Inc - ex-football players go around beating up computer hackers. Bland, boring and poorly drawn & written.

Marc Hazzerd - Merc - ex-football player turned mercenary (actually I'm not sure if he was a football player but everything I said about Kickers goes double for this)

Spitfire & the Troubleshooters - the true dregs. Big, crappy robot designed by a high school cheerleader's dad before he is killed in the first issue is almost stolen but fortunately the 'Troubleshooters' save the day (and the big, clumsy, crappy robot that sinks 2 feet into soft ground when it moves - whoops guess daddy wasn't quite the genius he's made out to be!). The TS are more high school computer geeks (maybe they were the same ones Marc Hazzerd was going after?).


Another, more recent, crappy comic is Dark Knight 2. Now I love Frank Miller's work. Art, writing, characterization - he does have talent. So what happened here? The story is all over the road - fashion as the 'weapon'? Batman's having an affair with a 16 year-old? Horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE art! Gah! I actually bought all three issues of this (because I'm either stupid or a glutton for punishment) hoping, praying it would get better.

It didn't.

 

[Khynal]

This is incredibly geeky, but I can't stop myself:

I notice that on the above cover, Spider-Man is in the black costume. What I want to know is, is that the actual living symbiote that later went on to form Venom, or is it the normal cloth costume that the Black Cat made for him later?

*sigh* Couldn't stop myself.

I remember that he concentrated and it changed from his normal clothes, so I'm guessing the symbiote?

As for Circuit Breaker, she she showed up before issue 10 and kept popping up into the 20s. Died off after that for a while, but she showed up in the grand finale issue 75 to, um, briefly fry the circuits of the planet-sized Transformer/dark god, Unicron.