D&D 4E What will happen if 4E doesn't use the OGL?

[Moon-Lancer]

"All I'm saying is I don't buy the whole "3.5 FOREVER!"

you never have playe halflife have you? Its an old game from the 90s but you still have thousands of people playing. I don't know if its still true, but at one point is was the highest played online video game ever, and hl2 was already out for a year or so.

I have seen it happen and it can happen. dont let 2.x cloud your view. we have ogl. the only think that can stop us is us.

 

[Nellisir]

This is true. Its also possible that you could cobble together a reasonable facsimile of 4th edition with the OGL, kinda like the OSRIC (sp?) did with 1st edition. Which is why I suspect there will be some big changes in key areas to differentiate the two editions. Probably not as big as between 2nd and 3rd, but certainly bigger than between 3 and 3.5.

Hey Blu! Long time no see!

I suspect exactly the opposite. WotC's releases over the past 2 years only make sense to me if WotC's next edition release isn't 4e at all - it's 3.5 Revised, or Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Frankly, I -want- a PH and DMG upgraded to match the PH2, Magic Item Compendium, and Complete Mage...and a MM in the new stat block style. And the Rules Compendium doesn't seem like a product to release just before you change the rules.

If that's the case, WotC will either update the SRD in one fell swoop, or keep ignoring it, which won't matter to people that really get into it. Nearly every concept WotC has been exploring exists elsewhere in OGC-land (alot of it in Mongoose-world, actually - sucky editing, but pretty good for "throwing-every-rule-variant-you-can-think-of-and-some-you-can't-at-the-wall-and-seeing-what-sticks" writing) I could probably recreate 90-99% of the rules in the PH2 from OGC material I've got on hand.

I just don't see the value for WotC in abandoning 3.5e, rules-wise. The name, yes - I've always thought "3.5" was a terrible thing to call it. But the rules? No.

 

[Nellisir]

If 4E breaks away from the D20 system, the fanbase will split, and an OGL alternative will be released almost as soon as it's announced. Adding an XP table and a character generation system is all that's needed to create a fully functioning game, and once that's done, a D&D alternative will be available almost immediately.

A strong enough third party company with a bookstore presence that got out in front of the change -- Paizo/Necromancer and Green Ronin are both good candidates for this -- would be able to make this a lot more than a temporary fork, since everything on the shelves at the moment it happened would support the OGL fork, rather than 4E.

Frankly, if someone like Paizo or Green Ronin wanted to tweak the problem areas of 3E and add their own flavor to things, I could see a lot of people enjoying those more than the WotC flavor they've got currently. The only reason to not do it now is that there's not enough of a market for an alternate set of core books.

My thoughts exactly, dude. Exactly. You're creepin' me out. Or plagarizing me.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Does anybody think they will actually scrap the d20 system come 4th edition?

I'm hoping it will be a sort of 3.75 or what have you.

 

[Ranger REG]

I just don't see the value for WotC in abandoning 3.5e, rules-wise. The name, yes - I've always thought "3.5" was a terrible thing to call it. But the rules? No.

They abandoned 3.0e in three short years.

They're leaving the Third Edition because that era is about to end.

 

[Ranger REG]

Does anybody think they will actually scrap the d20 system come 4th edition?

Depends on who wins in the office politics at WotC R&D. Most of the major supporters, including the guy the created the OGL movement, are no longer working there. The number of WotC/Hasbro retained lawyers outnumbers the number of RPG designers on WotC's payroll.

I'm hoping it will be a sort of 3.75 or what have you.

Then it wouldn't be called 4e. Like having to BUY WinXP Service Pack 2, after having bought Service Pack 1.*

*I know Microsoft upgrade XP for free. But we're talking about WotC.

 

[JohnRTroy]

One thing to remember is that a lot of the "legacy staffers" from TSR are virtually gone. Most of the original staff of TSR were hired under the Gygax regime, and after it got big and management changed it was still pretty much the same until the big sale came to Wizards.

Once WoTC came in, there was a merging of cultures, but there was still enough game legacy for it to still "feel like" the old D&D. Granted, there were differences, but it still feels like you're playing a pen-and-paper RPG. However, the new culture was more willing to experiment, and liked to crunch numbers and game balance a lot more.

But now, I don't see that anymore. Most of the key figures have more or less left the company or work as freelancers. There is also a generational shift. I started getting D&D games in 1980, and that was over 25 years ago. The new generation, both on the consumer end and the producer end, might be more willing to accept/create radical changes. And there's more "corporate suits" at the high-level end making decisions. That's why I have reservations that I'd like a 4e D&D. It might be successful, but it might not be the same game.

Frankly, if someone like Paizo or Green Ronin wanted to tweak the problem areas of 3E and add their own flavor to things, I could see a lot of people enjoying those more than the WotC flavor they've got currently. The only reason to not do it now is that there's not enough of a market for an alternate set of core books.

The problem is there are a lot of people who would want this. I can think of at least half-a-dozen people who'd want to do this. And the problem is they'd all be fighting over the same limited pool of die-hards. That will affect sales, since they'll be people looking for their favorite writers or publishers, they'll be less purchases for each option, and some of the audience might quit RPGs altogether.

 

[CharlesRyan]

Can somebody explain to me why all these people with a bazillion hardcovers on their shelf, many (if not most) of which have barely been read - are in such a rush to switch and scrap $1500-$2000 in mostly new and modern hardcover books?

Why would a gamer with $1500 worth of RPG books on his shelf buy any new RPG products?

Because, regardless of how many books he has on his shelf, a cool new product is going to turn his head. This month, that cool new product might be a WotC supplement. Next month, an adventure from a 3rd-party publisher. And sometime down the road, it might be a new edition of the PHB.

And, frankly, of all the cool new RPG products you can imagine, what's more likely to get a gamer's blood pumping than a new edition of the PHB?

The idea that a backlog of existing RPG product is a stumbling block to adoption of a new D&D edition is a straw-man argument. Gamers don't make buying decisions based on what they currently own. They make buying decisions based on how intriguing a new product is. And you can't beat a new edition of D&D for intriguing.

 

[rgard]

Why would a gamer with $1500 worth of RPG books on his shelf buy any new RPG products?

Because, regardless of how many books he has on his shelf, a cool new product is going to turn his head. This month, that cool new product might be a WotC supplement. Next month, an adventure from a 3rd-party publisher. And sometime down the road, it might be a new edition of the PHB.

And, frankly, of all the cool new RPG products you can imagine, what's more likely to get a gamer's blood pumping than a new edition of the PHB?

The idea that a backlog of existing RPG product is a stumbling block to adoption of a new D&D edition is a straw-man argument. Gamers don't make buying decisions based on what they currently own. They make buying decisions based on how intriguing a new product is. And you can't beat a new edition of D&D for intriguing.

I see your point, but I would modify it slightly to "Most gamers don't make buying decisions based on what the currently own."

I may be the exception, but if 4E is non-OGL and different enough to 3.5E to make conversion time consuming, I'll opt out.

I'm extremely happy with 3.5E. My future purchases with be based on whether the product is compatible with 3.5E. If the 3rd party types stop producing OGL (3.5E based), I'll cease to be a customer of gaming products as I have more than enough 3.5E/OGL gaming material to keep me having fun without dropping anymore money into the hobby.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[francisca]

Because, regardless of how many books he has on his shelf, a cool new product is going to turn his head. This month, that cool new product might be a WotC supplement. Next month, an adventure from a 3rd-party publisher. And sometime down the road, it might be a new edition of the PHB.

Unless you are someone like me, who has looked at his shelf, and says, "Yeah. Cool product. Another one to collect dust."

There is a net outflow of product off my shelves, and I imagine within about 2 years, it will pared down to corebooks for 1 or 2 systems and a fistful of adventures or other supplements.

I haven't bought anything from WotC since UA, for example.