What WOTC book should I buy?

[Flyspeck23]

What this boils down to is: we'd need more input! DM/player, looking for a new campaign or ways to change your old, seeking more player options, etc.

Eberron is *absurdly* overrated, IMO. Essentially a DnD version of the 1920s (with Dune-like "Houses" and magical sentient robots thrown in). I mean, it has some nice stuff (changeling and shifter races; a cool cosmology), but some real crap as well (any class with "Extreme" in its name is simply beyond the pale).

IMHO it's not overrated - nice "crunch", interesting "fluff", and a very good read.

Not really sure why people are falling all over it...

You'll have to read the book. It's not just the beautiful layout and artwork.

However, if you can only afford to buy one book, I don't think you should spend your money on a WotC product. Instead, I'd recommend that you take a serious look at some of the 3rd party stuff out there.

Do you want a campaign setting? Check out Dawnforge or Midnight, or hold onto your cash for another week or so, and get the Iron Kingdoms book.
Are you looking for monsters? Check out Monsternomicon, or as you say, ToH2.
Do you want a class book? I like Path of The Sword, Path of Faith, Path of Shadow and Path of Magic better than any splatbook WotC has ever put out.
Are you into world building? Then you really want Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe or Magical Society: Ecology & Culture.

That's so true

 

[Turanil]

The only one I wish I had is the BoED, and, in fact, I'll be purchasing it tommorrow. The BoVD is CRAP. I bought it and actually gave it away. It's not even fit to be torn up and used as toilet paper (though I might burn it if it were the only fuel I could find on a deserted isle ).

I would be curious to know why you think so badly of BoVD. (To me it seems interesting to make evil opponents to throw against PCs.)

 

[Sorren]

I'd go with Eberron, Unearthed Arcana, or the Book of Vile Darkness, depending on what you need.

 

[woodelf]

I have not purchased anything but PDF's in a long time (is there any penance for that?) I'm starting to get the itch to buy another book. Of the following, which do you recommend (if I'm getting only one)?

Complete Warrior
Complete Divine
Book of Vile Darkness
Book of Exalted Deeds
Unearthed Arcana
Eberron
Draconomicon
Fiend Folio
MM 2
[Tome of Horrors II]

I don't own any of the above... which one do you think I should own?
(or did I leave anything off that should be included?)

Well, if it has to be from that list, i guess Unearthed Arcana and Eberron are both reasonably good. Personally, however, i'd give a completely different list of recommends:

Arcana Unearthed
Artificer's Handbook
Magical Society: Ecology & Culture
Midnight
Nyambe
Dynasties & Demagogues
Crime & Punishment
Love & War
Occult Lore
Touched by the Gods

Those are some that immediately popped to mind that i'll recommend without reservation--they're all good enough to get someone who dislikes D20 System to buy them anyway. Those aren't all super-new, but they are all available and hardcopy. And they all are far better than anything on your list, IMHO. Of course, YMMV, which is compounded by the fact that i have no idea what you like in an RPG book, or what you'd have use for. Really, i think i'll have to second the recommendation to hit the FLGS and look at a bunch--perhaps going in armed with a list of suggestions from this thread for what to look at.

 

[sparxmith]

Vile Darkness

I would be curious to know why you think so badly of BoVD. (To me it seems interesting to make evil opponents to throw against PCs.)

If you're going to DM, then the BoVD has been extremely important to my campaign, and not because I'm a purient child, but because evil fiend worshiping cults are improtant to my campaign. I'd ignore sparxmith's comments unless the poster is goign to actually say something about why they don't like the book, rather than rant about it.

The Book of Vile Darkness is a poor guide to designing a demonic/diabolic campaign. It begins with a look at and exploration of the nature of evil. The author's, Monte Cook's, take on morality in this instance made me sick to my stomach. It is in the prurient moral interest of the D20 community to boycott this book. All of the hassle of D&D being tied to the occult would come to front and center on the national news AGAIN if any reporter decided to make a case for it.

The book's exploration of Demonology, though primarily fictitious, so closely mirrors the Christian/Satanic mythos that anyone, including the author, would have a difficult time denying a claim of Satanic influence. The argument of, "It's just a game. You need to stop seeing demons where none exist," in my opinion, doesn't hold weight when the book uses the names of ACTUAL entities from a REAL-WORLD religion (Christianity) and its opposite (Satanism).

Dungeons & Dragons has moved so far away from the Occult influences of its early days. We no longer play with any real world references. All of the Deities and symbols have been sterilized of these refernces (i.e. We don't have any pentagrams or any other "magical" symbols in our books, and we now use completely fictitious deities). To revert to using the mythology of Chrisitanity and Satanism was just that: a reversion. It's a step backward.

Furthermore, adding "Vile" elements to a campaign only serves to add an unnecessary amount of evil to a campaign. Something "Vile" is, by definition, disgustingly evil. The purpose of D&D is to play heroes. If a campaign has devolved to the point that the only way the PC's look like heroes is to resort to the BBEG's being cultists of Satan, Lucifer, and Beelzebub, then maybe a reality check is in order. The campaign has moved beyond the scope of playing heroic fiction. I'll grant that for some, playing an evil character is what makes D&D enjoyable. However, I'd not care to play with such individuals. "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."

In summary, my detestation of the Book of Vile Darkness comes from a profound desire to see my hobby cast in its most positive light, and from a sincere desire to play a heroic game. My experiences in religion have taught me that if it looks bad it probably is. The BoVD definitely fits that bill.

 

[Pants]

The Book of Vile Darkness is a poor guide to designing a demonic/diabolic campaign. It begins with a look at and exploration of the nature of evil. The author's, Monte Cook's, take on morality in this instance made me sick to my stomach.

The take on morality is pretty black and white actually, just like the BoED is.

It is in the prurient moral interest of the D20 community to boycott this book.

That's a load.

All of the hassle of D&D being tied to the occult would come to front and center on the national news AGAIN if any reporter decided to make a case for it.

Frankly, if a reporter wanted to screw with D&D, there are plenty, plenty of opportunities to do so without even looking at the BoVD. Face it, if someone truly wants to smear it, they WILL find a way.

The book's exploration of Demonology, though primarily fictitious, so closely mirrors the Christian/Satanic mythos that anyone, including the author, would have a difficult time denying a claim of Satanic influence.

Yes, Monte Cook is some crazed cultist trying to get you to worship Satan

The argument of, "It's just a game. You need to stop seeing demons where none exist," in my opinion, doesn't hold weight when the book uses the names of ACTUAL entities from a REAL-WORLD religion (Christianity) and its opposite (Satanism).

So?

Dungeons & Dragons has moved so far away from the Occult influences of its early days.

Yeah... occult influences.
Whatever...

We no longer play with any real world references. All of the Deities and symbols have been sterilized of these refernces (i.e. We don't have any pentagrams or any other "magical" symbols in our books, and we now use completely fictitious deities). To revert to using the mythology of Chrisitanity and Satanism was just that: a reversion. It's a step backward.

What? D&D 'mythology' barely resembles Christian myth in any way. the only way that you could say that it does is that D&D has gods, demons, devils, and angels in it.
Sorry, but that's completely bogus.

Furthermore, adding "Vile" elements to a campaign only serves to add an unnecessary amount of evil to a campaign.

That's a bridge that Dungeon Masters and players should have an option to cross if they want to.

Something "Vile" is, by definition, disgustingly evil.

True, but most detractors of the book claim that it is immaturely vile.

The purpose of D&D is to play heroes.

Generalization.

If a campaign has devolved to the point that the only way the PC's look like heroes is to resort to the BBEG's being cultists of Satan, Lucifer, and Beelzebub, then maybe a reality check is in order.

The BoVD is meant more for a DM's guide to villains than a player's book. Monte makes this fact clear decidedly early in the book.

The campaign has moved beyond the scope of playing heroic fiction. I'll grant that for some, playing an evil character is what makes D&D enjoyable. However, I'd not care to play with such individuals.

And that's a choice you have to make for yourself. Don't go ragging on other people because your style of play is not the preferred one.

In summary, my detestation of the Book of Vile Darkness comes from a profound desire to see my hobby cast in its most positive light, and from a sincere desire to play a heroic game.

It's a DM's book, read the first chapter and the intro.

 

[sparxmith]

Did you actually have anything to say?

I'm curious, Pants, if you actually have anything to say, or if you feel that the denial of ideas is the exploration of ideas?

--Sparxmith

EDIT:

I am not a Christian, nor do I feel any antagonism towards anyone who chooses to pursue "alternative" religions. Anybody who's checked out the links in my .sig will see that I have quite a sense of humor concerning the nature of religion. However, I still find the BoVD to be morose. And my concerns of linking D&D to the occult do not stem from a fear that the writers are "Trying to corrupt the youth of America." They stem from a desire for the game to appealing to the general public. My first post on the matter simply stated my distaste for the book. The second post attempted to explain it. If anyone disagrees with my points, feel free to repudiate them. However, simply mocking them is not a repudiation. It demonstrates a poster's lack of articulation and clear thought, which I cannot argue with.

 

[Nightfall]

Move to more productive matters...

Get Tome of Horrors 2. It rocks! *headbangs*

 

[Gez]

Buy them all, and ship them to me.

Just joking -- I don't need the BoVD, FF, and MM2, I already got them. But the others, please do.


OK, to get serious.

The Fiend Folio goes well together with the BoVD. Which itself goes well with BoED.

The MM2 contains several classical critters (like the aforementionned deathknight, or the banshee -- ironic that the banshee would not be in the core rules, since there's a wail of the banshee spell). Some other are just blah, though, like the loxxo (huge, double-trunked, humanoid elephants?).

Tome of Horrors 2 might be hard to find, since if your FLGS don't have one in stock, they won't be able to order one. White Wolf's whole stock is sold!

 

[MerricB]

Complete Warrior
Complete Divine
Book of Vile Darkness
Book of Exalted Deeds
Unearthed Arcana
Eberron
Draconomicon
Fiend Folio
MM 2
[Tome of Horrors II]

I don't own any of the above... which one do you think I should own?
(or did I leave anything off that should be included?)

I run a D&D campaign set in the World of Greyhawk, with quite a bit of dungeon-delving, but also political intrigue and wilderness adventuring thrown into the mix.

Of the books you list, the Complete Warrior and Complete Divine see the most
use, with the Fiend Folio and Monster Manual II also seeing use from time to time.

Unearthed Arcana is almost useless in this campaign, as I'm running a standard D&D game; I do not (yet) possess the Draconomicon or Eberron.

The Book of Vile Darkness, despite its focus on evil forces that should have a bearing on this campaign, is actually not that useful to me. The Book of Exalted Deeds is also not useful, due to a mainly neutral party outlook.

Cheers!