What would a magical world look like? Discussion thread

This is a point I often bring up when discussing world-building. Raise Dead alone is a spell that will have a huge impact on society, should it exist as a reliable commercial service. In 3.5, it requires 5,000 GP worth of diamonds. Which means that the people with the diamond fields are sitting on the gateway between life and death. A nation with diamond fields is going to wield tremendous political and economic influence, and likely be the center of the resurrection industry... something that's not really explored in most settings, Eberron included. I don't believe Eberron is a good model of a world in which Raise Dead exists as a reliable service, which is why in all the sourcebooks I've worked on I've tried to provide reasons why it's unreliable for most people (ranging from most religions taking a dim view of it to the fact that it often brings unwanted things back, ranging from ghosts to maruts).

I think it's very interesting to explore the impact reliable D&D magic can have on a world. Eberron goes down this path, but not completely. Stephen Brust's Taltos books show a civilization that's more mystically advanced than Eberron, with teleportation, resurrection, and sending all around as casual services.

Of course, you get a weird economic loop. If diamonds are required for commercial resurrection, you would expect them to be in high demand, which means their price would shoot up. Does this affect the quantity of diamonds required to perform the spell? If the value of diamonds triples, does the spell now require 15,000 gp in diamonds, or do the gods cut you a break and take 5,000 gp at the current market rate?

I think one would have to have two different "scales" of value in that case - a realistic market value and a set mystical value. D&D economics is a little too abstracted to deal with realistic market values, though. I'm certainly not keen on getting that in-depth. :P
 

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I'm taking inspiration from the title of another thread.

It's generally acknowledged that things like castles and medieval fortifications as a whole are less than useful in a world with D&D style magic in it.

They still have some use. They still prevent attacks by "mundanes". Adding things like "hoardings" helps repel flying creatures. Fireballs don't do much damage to stone walls. Of course, invisibility, impersonating and mobility magic bypass walls in differing ways.

And even these aren't infallible. Passwords slow (but do not stop) impersonations. Intelligence-gathering is necessary to bypass these, or a long-term infiltration so you get told the password along with the real guards. Invisibility can be stopped by closing doors or hanging transparent curtains all over the place. There's not much fix for Dimension Door that doesn't involve magic, but you do need a mage of 7th-level+ to pull this off... and they need to either be higher-level or do it multiple times (or shrink companions, etc) to take an army with them. A single mage isn't usually that dangerous, unless they've got a lot of levels, and even an infiltrating adventuring party is going to face issues.

D&D 4e balanced magic compared to mundane, so walls work better there. Invisibility is easy to perceive because you don't get a bonus to Stealth (it's hide in plain sight) and see transparent curtains above. Passwall is a ritual with a long casting time, so you need some way of hiding what you're doing. (The Greater Invisibility spell only lasts 5 minutes at best, requires at least a minor action to use each turn... and the ritual takes more than 5 minutes to cast. There's a Traveler's Camouflage ritual that would let you perform this invisibly, but even then I'm pretty sure the fold in space will appear. But by then it might be too late.)

IMO, if PCs or NPCs work to prove that the security is not infallible, I think it's okay. I don't think D&D magic is so over the top (most of the time) that you can automatically bypass even mundane security. A castle is a series of encounters, same with a thieves' guild or other such target.

Similarly, feudal style social stratification would fall by the wayside very quickly when some talented kid off the farm could develop Sorcerous abilities out of nowhere.

I disagree. You'd just have more power groups. I discussed that in this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355544-What-is-feudalism-medieval-to-you - specifically see the "confessor" to go along with the court mage.

The power that real-life nobles led was in terms of wealth and military. You had land, you had money and food, you had troops supported by said money and food.

Of course, you also have people who can alter reality, in at least two flavors... but they're kind of rare. While a wizard might be more powerful than a fighter, they're not going to be stronger than a dozen fighters. Not unless they start abusing Simulacrum. A wizard with a bunch of simulacra is probably as powerful as a lord with lots of troops. A mage might create a tower and call himself the local lord, and when he dies his children might take over, or have a lot less talent and sell their skills, putting an end to that short-live noble line.

Wizards have their own vulnerabilities (at least those that aren't really high-level). They require components in most editions of D&D and ritual components in 4e, plus spellbooks and/or scrolls and/or implements. Even a basic orb costs quite a few gold pieces. Wizards either need to create guilds or attach themselves to a powerful lord. Guilds are targets, but then they're not going to roll over and play dead. The best guilds are secret. In some settings (such as Dark Sun) these vulnerabilities are extreme. You could get killed just trying to buy a 1st-level scroll (or shaken down by a templar).

Consider a world where the "Will of god" can be known with certainty, and independently verified from anywhere on the continent.

The only way to know the "will of a god" is to use magic, either pray (a divination-type spell) to get a message, or literally visit the god. And even then, you know the will of one god, not their rival or enemy. You might not even be talking directly to the god, but to their angels, devils, or other servants. If the god is someone like Cyric or Zeus, they might not know their own wills.

Consider a justice system where the innocence or guilt of an accused criminal can be verified with 100% certainty, using the right magics.

Sometimes in real life a noble may have murdered someone in public and go a slap on the wrist. Indeed, nobles were the local law. Power means a lot. I hardly see how 100% lie detection helps matters. Duke Jerry is not going to convict himself. You could even bribe the lie-detector! Also, memory-altering magic could result in a character believing they're telling the truth that they didn't hire an assassin to kill a rival. (Magic is also great for establishing alibis, whether having an imposter or just mass-charming witnesses.) Order of the Stick played with this trope; an evil aristocrat had an extraordinary ability through a prestige class that made him immune to truth-sensing magic.

I figure a smart villain would act like a paranoid organized crime figure. A mobster might never discuss business over a phone, and never commit a crime in person. A villain might pass all messages through subordinates, talking to them in a sound-proof room. (Even if they're scryed upon, unless the scryer can read lips...)

Consider a world where trade can occur over vast distances in the blink of an eye, thanks to spells like Itemize/Shrink Item and Teleport.

This one is pretty edition-dependent. You would have issues in 4e, where you need a portal network, and these are expensive and heavily-guarded because they're creating a point of vulnerability. (4e portals specifically get found in major cities, temples and mage guilds or towers, not great places to try to invade. They're also small, and should be surrounded by large numbers of guards.) It's expensive even to use the ritual, so only expensive, high-value and (hopefully) low mass items get sold.

Consider a world where pretty much every national border can be bypassed by anyone who can afford the Wizard's services, where an enemy can use things like Teleport Circle to drop troops directly into your capital city, or even your bedroom.

That's a very high-level spell. Most settings just don't have that many high-level casters. Teleportation Circle (and its psionic Wormhole versions) are specifically designed to do this though. In 4e, you can do this too, at 28th-level, maybe a couple of levels lower with the right feat, and even then you're pouring out of a 10 foot circle, plus the portal lasts a limited period of time. You can't teleport armies. You can invent the medieval equivalent of paratroopers though. (There's a lot of strategic use of invading a strategic castle that was holding supplies for enemy forces. Now you've got their food, and can sally forth to attack their rear and burn their tents. It's not an I win button though)
 

Isn't Eberron supposed to partially answer these questions?

+1. But more helpfully, you have a few options:

Low magic: the lowborn sorceror and god-given magic are the exceptions to the historical rule. Standard medieval fantasy ideas abound, only to be disrupted on the rare occasion that a king has a royal mage, or an evil sorceror (demigod?) threatens the realm.

Mid magic: probably the most chaotic. There's enough magic out there to disrupt normal activity, but not enough for it to be commonplace and controlled.

High magic: this magic acts like technology. Everyone has some, there's countermeasures in place for everything, and there's rarely a problem with it since everything is in its right place. Trade occurs over vast distances? See Amazon. Innocent or guilty? Check the DNA trail. Feudal stratification? See Bill Gates.
 

Isn't Eberron supposed to partially answer these questions?
The main thing about Eberron is that the magic that's been integrated into society is relatively low level; we generally say that it's "wide magic" instead of "high magic." The streets are lit with continual flame and Ghallanda chefs season the stew with prestidigitation. People expect to see fireballs on the battlefield. But teleportation (and in my Eberron, resurrection) is something that's still rare and impressive, and magic like wish is a thing of legend. The first draft of Eberron had a higher overall level of magic, but if you go too far down that road you get a very different sort of world.

Even with low level magic, you do hit a lot of issues. One of the reason I treat alignment the way I do is to explain how evil can exist in a world where paladins are a recognized part of society. Similarly, Eberron's approach to religion deals with spells such as commune and instant access to divine answers.

It's certainly an interesting thought exercise, but with Eberron it's something we pulled back from.
 


A further side note on Eberron: one of the things we emphasize is that PC classes are rare. Most professional spellcasters are magewrights, not wizards; and most priests aren't spellcasters at all. You go to a temple for spiritual guidance, not magic. Again, this was a conscious decision to pull back from full-on high magic; a world where you can't throw a rock without hitting a cleric or wizard should feel considerably more impact from magic than Eberron.
 

One last thought, as I'm going to be off the internet for a while... rituals will have a larger impact on daily life than Vancian magic. Consider a locksmith. If he can cast arcane lock twice a day, he can't really make a serious living providing magical security; does he just close up shop after the second customer? Conversely, rituals are limited only by time and components. If the locksmith has time, he can cast arcane locks all day, charging his clients sufficiently to pay for his components and markup. Suddenly "arcane locksmith" is a valid occupation and arcane locks can replace mundane locks. But when a spell is something you have to prepare in advance and can only do once or twice a day, it's often going to be hard to build an industry around it.

In 3.5 Eberron, we explained the power of the dragonmarked houses not actually coming from their Vancian spell-like powers, but rather because their marks allowed them to use dragonmark focus items... essentially, magic items that let them provide ongoing services. A gnome who can cast whispering wind twice per day has a party trick. A gnome who can cast whispering wind a hundred times a day (using a focus item) has the basis for a business.
 

Cool ideas.

I think some of the smaller stuff likely has huge impact. Low Light Vision (which I mentioned in the other thread) means that I can see perfectly well at night, outdoors, in all but the darkest of nights. This has a pretty big impact. Why would, say, an elven stronghold bother with lights? They're not necessary. Particularly considering that many D&D worlds have more than one moon. The number of times you have a cloudy moonless night is pretty small. Which means you have a lot less towns burning down from careless fires.

The existence of a number of very, very useful species would have a huge impact too. Giant beetles would be a fantastic source of protein, and would make waste disposal very simple. There would be many efforts to either tame or domesticate all sorts of creatures. The Monster Manual is replete with examples of various monsters that can be used in a domestic situation. 2e is a particularly good resource here.

Of course, we tend to ignore the genius races. Lots of critters are far, far smarter than humans, yet, we almost always posit humanocentric worlds.
 


I ALWAYS have an answer for all these questions but that answer might differ depending on the campaign. I do believe that the OP mischaracterizes the state of things on a few issues.

1. A teleport circle requires a powerful wizard whose rate is quite high. Since the volume of matter per teleport is really limited, I don't see it being a major impactor of common trade. It would be great for exotic items or highly potable wealth like jewels and jewelry.

2. Plenty of people in my campaign worlds don't believe the Gods are Gods. In fact in my current campaign the elves completely disagree in their divinity. No one doubts that powerful beings from other dimensions are trying to influence our world. So? That doesn't make them divine or worthy of worship. Is a being like superman automatically a God? No. All of these Gods are killable in theory.

3. The guy with mind blank never gets questioned. Highly talented criminals will know all the countermeasures. If the game doesn't provide countermeasures they would naturally arise in response soon enough.

4. I generally rule death by old age cannot be resurrected. So sure rulers live longer but they don't live forever. An assassin knows he has to dispose of the body if he is going to be successful. So after killing the target he throws the body into his portable hole and vanishes. Soon after the body is burned to ash and its scattered across the sea.

I often "tweak" the existing rules in minor ways because I always want the rules to be how the world works. I never think of the classes and rules as PC only stuff. The world is full of such types and the world has learned how to deal with them. I put ranges on teleport and scrying.
 

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