What would casting Grease on a swarm do?

[KarinsDad]

You are assuming they cannot be knocked prone. The SRD only says they cannot be tripped (unless i'm just missing it, in which case a quote would be nice). can't be tripped != can't be prone. Grease would affect any land-based swarm the same as anything else.

Grease is only on the lower surface.

Part of the swarm is standing on other parts of the swarm.

Your assumption is that it is a washing machine of creatures where all of them would go from the top and back to the bottom, hence, all of them would eventually get greased.

I think an assumption that they cannot be tripped / cannot be bullrushed = cannot be knocked prone = cannot fall down, makes more sense than your assumption that greased ones on the bottom means that ones on the top will be greased as well.


Grease is a 2 dimensional spell. The swarm is 3 dimensional.


PS. I would also rule that cannot be tripped / cannot be grappled / cannot be bullrushed (MM page 316) also means that they cannot be overrun.


It doesn't make sense that you could knock down an entire swarm by running through them. Some would get "knocked down", but the majority of the swarm would just swarm over you.


Just like with Grease, some would get "greased", but the majority of the swarm would not be affected.


If you had a 3 dimensional area effect spell that knocked down all creatures (i.e. affected the creatures themselves), that would be different. But, Grease is a spell that affects a surface or a single object, not a group of creatures.


Let me give you another example.

Say you had a poisonous floor. If you cast Summon Swarm on it, the ones on the bottom die. The ones above do not. They are standing on the bodies of the dead ones, not the floor. For all intents and purposes, the swarm is not affected by the floor.

 

[darthkilmor]

Grease is only on the lower surface.

Part of the swarm is standing on other parts of the swarm.

Your assumption is that it is a washing machine of creatures where all of them would go from the top and back to the bottom, hence, all of them would eventually get greased.

I think an assumption that they cannot be tripped / cannot be bullrushed = cannot be knocked prone = cannot fall down, makes more sense than your assumption that greased ones on the bottom means that ones on the top will be greased as well.


Grease is a 2 dimensional spell. The swarm is 3 dimensional.


PS. I would also rule that cannot be tripped / cannot be grappled / cannot be bullrushed (MM page 316) also means that they cannot be overrun.


It doesn't make sense that you could knock down an entire swarm by running through them. Some would get "knocked down", but the majority of the swarm would just swarm over you.


Just like with Grease, some would get "greased", but the majority of the swarm would not be affected.


If you had a 3 dimensional area effect spell that knocked down all creatures (i.e. affected the creatures themselves), that would be different. But, Grease is a spell that affects a surface or a single object, not a group of creatures.


Let me give you another example.

Say you had a poisonous floor. If you cast Summon Swarm on it, the ones on the bottom die. The ones above do not. They are standing on the bodies of the dead ones, not the floor. For all intents and purposes, the swarm is not affected by the floor.

Thats all great, but its all assumption and conjecture. If you want to house rule that grease wouldnt affect a land-based swarm, thats great, but you need some SRD to back up your argument that by RAW grease doesnt affect a land-based swarm.

 

[ForceUser]

Thats all great, but its all assumption and conjecture. If you want to house rule that grease wouldnt affect a land-based swarm, thats great, but you need some SRD to back up your argument that by RAW grease doesnt affect a land-based swarm.

Sounds like common sense to me. I think I'm going to veer from RAW on this one.

 

[Kelleris]

Sounds like common sense to me. I think I'm going to veer from RAW on this one.

Eh, I can see a grease spell sufficiently sliming an area that the swarm can't make united forward progress without sorting itself out ("standing up" and making a Reflex save) first. Of course, it'll still deal swarm damage normally if anyone gets into its area.

I think it's not really clear which would happen. I'd probably make a call on the fly when it came up based on which answer would be the most entertaining, and then make a note to myself to stick to that for future rulings in that campaign.

 

[darthkilmor]

Sounds like common sense to me. I think I'm going to veer from RAW on this one.

Congratulations with your new house rule! Nothing about magic and dragons has anything to do with common sense.

The poison example is particularly broken, as the swarm subtype specifies they save as a single creature.

 

[ForceUser]

Congratulations with your new house rule! Nothing about magic and dragons has anything to do with common sense.

The poison example is particularly broken, as the swarm subtype specifies they save as a single creature.

Your sneer of derision practically leaps from the screen. Why do you care whether I use RAW or not?*










*The answer will be, of course, "I don't care, but..." For you see, gents, that's how anonymous posters on internet messageboards operate.

 

[darthkilmor]

Your sneer of derision practically leaps from the screen. Why do you care whether I use RAW or not?*










*The answer will be, of course, "I don't care, but..." For you see, gents, that's how anonymous posters on internet messageboards operate.

I care only in that , as many people have posted and complained about , this is not a house rules forum, its a rules forum. If you're looking for a RAW answer, thats great. if you're looking for how people house rule stuff, this isnt really the place for it.

 

[ForceUser]

I care only in that , as many people have posted and complained about , this is not a house rules forum, its a rules forum. If you're looking for a RAW answer, thats great. if you're looking for how people house rule stuff, this isnt really the place for it.

I was looking for the RAW answer, which you'd know if you'd read the whole thread. Once I got the RAW answer, I decided against using it. I mean, we're allowed to disagree with the RAW in the RAW forum, right? Maybe not.

EDIT: Removed inflammatory comment. I don't feel like arguing today.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).

So, if they fail the REF save, they fall prone. If they attempt to move at Half speed, they need to get at least a 5 on thier balance check or they fall prone. If they attempt to move at full speed, they need at least a 10 on thier check or fall prone.

The SRD swarms are Cats and Spiders. They can fall down. Cool. So, Prone Swarm of Cats/Spiders takes a move action to stand up again. Then they need to beat 5 {or 10} on the balance check in order to move. They both have a Balance skill of +10... so pretty much they ignore it from that point on.

Oops, the Centipede Swarm fits as well...Okay.. now what? How is a Prone Centipede Swarm different than a non-Prone Centepede Swarm? Umm..... I cannot see treating a Centipede Swarm as Prone... it wouldn't look any different than normal anyway.

So, per RAW, the spell can force a landbased swarm to burn a move action if it fails the initial REF save when the grease appears under its feat.. otherwize it has no real effect.

Perhaps the Raw should have been clear on whether a Swarm can have the condition of Prone applied to it or not. Oh well, one more bit of sillyness for OOTS

 

[melkorspawn]

Grease is only on the lower surface.

Part of the swarm is standing on other parts of the swarm.

What would happen if you were riding a horse and the horse fell down? The upper parts of the swarm are, of course, not riding, but what if you were standing on a chair and it fell down?

Would you, perhaps, fall?