What would casting Grease on a swarm do?

[Kelleris]

I don't think he means "Target the cat with the Grease spell to make it greasy".

I'm assuming he means that we know that a single cat in the area of a Grease spell can fall prone as a result of the spell, so why not three hundred of them?

That's what I was after, yeah.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think he means "Target the cat with the Grease spell to make it greasy".

I'm assuming he means that we know that a single cat in the area of a Grease spell can fall prone as a result of the spell, so why not three hundred of them?

A single cat is not immune to certain spells either.

Swarms gain abilities that single cats do not possess.

The question is moot.

If a swarm of centipedes occupy the same square as a beholder, is the beholder subject to the swarm attack and distraction?

The rules are a bit vague on vertical distances with regard to being in the same square. If you are asking if a Beholder that is within the same horizontal square and a few feet off the ground subject to the swarm attack and distraction, you tell me.

Does a non-flying swarm that swarms over itself and its targets (as per the MM) have the ability to swarm upwards a few feet?

If the swarm attack requires someone to have hundreds of centipedes crawling on them, why are there no centipedes crawling on them when they take a five foot step away?

That's why it is called magic.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A single cat is not immune to certain spells either.

Swarms gain abilities that single cats do not possess.

That's right.

They're immune to spells that target a specific number of creatures. Grease doesn't.

They're immune to mind-affecting spells. Grease isn't.

They're immune to being tripped, bull-rushed, or grappled. Grease doesn't do any of those.

Swarms gain specific abilities and immunities that single cats don't possess. Immunity to Grease isn't among them.

The rules are a bit vague on vertical distances with regard to being in the same square. If you are asking if a Beholder that is within the same horizontal square and a few feet off the ground subject to the swarm attack and distraction, you tell me.

As written? It's in the square, it takes the damage. Just like someone wearing thick leather boots does.

That's why it is called magic.

What's magical about a swarm of centipedes or a five foot step?

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Not solid ground for me. I don't much care what it is for you.

Though, oddly enough, the SRD doesn't contain the text you cite in the subtype description.

What it is to you is rrelevant.

It is RAW in the Monster Manual, hence, it is the rules.

That's some weird organization. And according to my SRD, bat and spider swarms are both immune to weapon damage.

Sounds like a correction and a good one at that.

Still, it doesn't take away from the Swarm Vulnerabilities which ARE in the SRD.

B) So the spell conjures a layer of grease that is them immobile? I think that's an odd interpretation, and doesn't fit terribly well with other conjuration (creation) effects either.

Says you.

We are talking about an area effect conjuration creation spell here.

What area effect magical conjuration creation spells can be taken outside of their area?

You mean like Acid Fog where the acid does not leave the area?

Or, how about Cloudkill?

Evard's Black Tentacles?

Fog Cloud?

Incendiary Cloud?

Obscuring Mist?

Sleet Storm?

Solid Fog?

Stinking Cloud?

Web?


Glitterdust is the only such spell where the effect can leave the area and the conjuration is actually written as attaching to creatures.

I would say that precedence is on my side here.


If you touch a Greased sword, drop it, and then pick up a non-Greased sword, is there a RAW game mechanic chance of you dropping the second sword?

 

[KarinsDad]

As written? It's in the square, it takes the damage. Just like someone wearing thick leather boots does.

What is the definition of "in the square" with regard to vertical distances?

 

[Legildur]

What is the definition of "in the square" with regard to vertical distances?

I'd normally say that a 'cube' would be more appropriate and hence anything that substantially intrudes into the cube would be said to be occupying it. But I'm not sure if that is supported by the RAW (probably something under size or aerial combat if anywhere).

With a beholder, I wouldn't complain (too much) if my DM ruled that a swarm could not affect a beholder. However, a swarm of cats (for example) could either leap or climb on one another in a scramble to move along in order to reach the beholder.

 

[Caliban]

What if you use Sculpt Spell to turn the area of Grease into a 20' burst (which would theoretcially coat everything in the area). Would you rule that that affects the swarm differently?

 

[KarinsDad]

That's right.

They're immune to spells that target a specific number of creatures. Grease doesn't.

They're immune to mind-affecting spells. Grease isn't.

Where does it state that they are immune to mind-affecting spells?

They're immune to being tripped, bull-rushed, or grappled. Grease doesn't do any of those.

Swarms gain specific abilities and immunities that single cats don't possess. Immunity to Grease isn't among them.

You are correct.

Non-flying swarms are not immune to Grease if they are not moving or attacking a creature since "A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of non-flying creatures)".

Flying swarm are immune to Grease since "or a cube (if it is made up of flying creatures)".

If they are moving or attacking a creature, then they immune since they "crawl all over their prey" and "generally crawl all over each other and their prey when moving or attacking".


Now, the question for the "rules literal" side of this discussion is:

Is a flying swarm affected by Grease since it is in the same square?

Is the answer no because it is a cube (as opposed to a square)?

If so, is a non-flying swarm immune to Grease because "unlike other creatures other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its creatures"? Since swarms swarm (i.e. crawl over themselves), they have a characteristic that many other creatures do not. They are shapeable and can crawl over themselves and other creatures to no longer be in the area of effect (even if they are still "in the same square").


Is a toad familiar sitting on the shoulder of a Wizard in a Grease spell immune to the spell if the Wizard does not fall?

Is a soldier sitting on a horse in a Grease spell immune to the spell if the horse does not fall?

Is the swarm crawling over the same Wizard in a Grease spell immune to the spell if the Wizard does not fall?

 

[Kelleris]

You mean like Acid Fog where the acid does not leave the area? Solid Fog? Fog Cloud?

These can all be dispersed by a strong wind, actually. So yeah, they can leave the area, they just can't do it an have the same effects.

Obscuring Mist?

And this one can be burned off, too, sans magic.

Or, how about Cloudkill?

"Unlike a fog cloud, the cloudkill moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground."

Evard's Black Tentacles?

They're literally rooted to the ground. Presumably if you chopped one off and carried the dead bit out of the area it would stick around, though.

Incendiary Cloud?

"As with a cloudkill spell, the smoke moves away from you at 10 feet per round. Figure out the smoke’s new spread each round based on its new point of origin, which is 10 feet farther away from where you were when you cast the spell. By concentrating, you can make the cloud (actually its point of origin) move as much as 60 feet each round."

Sleet Storm?

Is a continuous conjuration, actually. I suspect that runoff and such (and the characters' wet clothing) does in fact leave the area. That just doesn't have any effect on the spell effect, because it's being continuously replenished.

Stinking Cloud?

Oh, another fog spell that can be moved out of its area by wind.

Web?

It's anchored in place, unlike a grease spell. Though, again, I see no reason why the webs couldn't be taken out of the area, they just wouldn't be able to effectively hinder you when separated from the main mass.

So I'd actually say that my point, which was that conjuration spells generate a real stuff that can be expected to have real-stuff-like effects - like a layer of grease being churned into hard-to-manage goop by a swarm - is supported by these cases. Presumably plenty of grease leaves the spell area after it's cast, just not enough to generate the grease spell's effect. I don't see why the grease wouldn't act like grease (get smeared all over the place and making everything slippery, including making more than just one doesn't-actually-exist-as-a-defined-unit "bottom row of centipedes" so) as long as the swarm is in the spell's area of effect.

 

[KarinsDad]

What if you use Sculpt Spell to turn the area of Grease into a 20' burst (which would theoretcially coat everything in the area). Would you rule that that affects the swarm differently?

Well, Sculpt Spell cannot be used to change a spell into a 20' burst (a spread yes).

I also wouldn't allow Sculpt Spell to affect area spells which are not already one of the shapes and minimum sizes that the feat allows for. This gives it the power of a Widen Spell (and more since you can also change the shape) which takes 3 extra spell slots for a single spell slot.

The reason is that the mechanic is broken since it gives a lot of power to spells that were limited in size in the first place.

This not only applies to Grease, but it applies to other "small area" spells as well.

For example, Call Lightning, Glitterdust, Glyph of Warding.