What would it take for 4E to win over the old guard? (Forked Thread: Changeover Poll)

[RFisher]

1. Rename it. I want to see the game bearing the name D&D being much closer to D&D. I also want it to be a (IMHO) better introduction to the hobby and a better flagship for the hobby. D&D isn’t the place to test out R&D’s new ideas. It should be handled more like Monopoly or Risk or other classic games. 4e should carry a different name.

2. The renamed 4e should get a new core book(s). Core book(s) that are designed to be used alone, not just the first in a sequence of core books. If they want to do the yearly core book thing in addition to this, I don’t care.

The split that I wouldn’t mind seeing would be along the Heroic/Paragon/Epic lines.

3. Mechanical changes. I don’t really know what exactly to suggest, but I think there are probably some changes that would make me much more comfortable with the system. Less siloing and more rituals being two possibilities.

I’m not very confident that the changes that might help win me over, however, apply to anyone else. ^_^

 

[Zustiur]

I played yesterday. I've been mulling over questions like the one posed in this thread, and during the game I noticed something.
I am having fun in the game....BUT
I don't enjoy the rules.
I don't enjoy the DM.
I don't enjoy the story.

What I'm getting enjoyment out of is the characters that have been created by the players.

That's it, and it alone. I like the players, I like the characters. But for the love of all gods in the pantheon, please transport me to a different system, and with luck, a different DM! The only reason I can find for not quitting the group is I want to see how these characters 'grow up', and keep talking to the other players. I'll be starting a pathfinder game soon. Maybe then I'll have the courage to leave this game behind.

To be fair, I'll try to list some broad fixes that would help:
1) clear up the ambiguity in the books. We've had way too many arguments over what the rules mean.
2) make the books readable. I don't know what it is, but I cannot stand trying to read more than a couple of paragraphs in this PHB. Give me any other edition's writing style in that regard.
3) bring back vancian magic.
4) get rid of powers for classes that didn't traditionally have something of that nature (ie spells!)

Then I might consider it. There's literally hundreds of things I could list, but I don't want to turn this into a rant.

 

[Samurai]

Re-read what you wrote here. Unless you live in a town of 16 people and are close with every one of them, this blanket statement is patently false. If you had the will to do so you would find people. I found a minis tournament back in Harbinger days to trade and to see what the game was about. In my normal circle, nobody was playing the skirmish game. But there were people out there. In fact, we had the biggest tournament scene in the country for years, yet I'd still run in to people who said they didn't know anyone who played it while they were right in game stores that ran tournaments. A couple guys encouraged me to put together a warband and play, and I did. I played all the way through Gen Con and beyond this year.

You wrote the questions and voted it needed major changes. If you were really interested in playing it, the question should have been worded differently and you voting differently. It doesn't matter what you bought, you wrote the questions and voted that it needed major changes. (repeated for emphasis).

You bought something you aren't happy with. You can try to say 'it's because everyone else doesn't like it, but it's not me it's them' but that's a crock.

Trying to make the team with D-Backing skills doesn't change that (but might have helped the Vikings and Colts this weekend ). So you bought something you didn't really like. I'm guessing everyone has at some point or another, even if it was just a gross beverage or bad pizza. If you cop ideas from it, it was still probably worth it, even if it wasn't what you expected. I have four books in a system I'll never use because I don't like it, but you can be assured I'm copping ideas from it for teh games I do run.

Look, you don't know me. As I said before, EVERY game I own that I actually care about (and I own dozens and dozens of different systems) I tinker with and make house rules for. The more I like the game, the more I delve into it, study the options and math behind them, and start coming up with changes and additions. My favorite games of all time have about 25-30 pages of such material. So far, 4e has about 8 pages of changes. Games I bought and regret or can't stand, I don't bother with... they are put on the shelf and forgotten about. I never just play a game RAW if I can help it. Now, the fact that I've written 8 pages for 4e, and keep buying books for it, means that I in fact don't hate it. Rather, I'm interested enough in it to tinker with it and create/write stuff for it.

As for my city, it has far more than 16 people, it has 1 FLGS (which I visit weekly and talk with frequently), and several groups playing D&D that I know about (there could well be more I don't know about, I'm not claiming omniscience here). Of the D&D groups I know about, every one has stayed with 3.5. None have even tried 4e, though several people (including myself) bought the books.

I thought maybe this town was a fluke, an anomaly, but the Changeover poll shows that in fact a whole ton of people are not switching to 4e. This is vastly different than what happened with the switch to 3e... all but 1 group here switched immediately to 3e, and the last holdout changed months later when the campaign ended.

I would like 4e to succeed, I don't want to see it go down in flames because I think it'll be bad for the hobby and for D&D as a brand. I do think that for it to catch on around here, and with others like me, some changes will likely be needed, and if they are too radical for the core books to do it, then an Unearthed Arcana or 3PP will have to do it (or else just stick with the houserules for now).

I'm not sorry I bought the books. Just the opposite, I care enough about the game that I want it to succeed, and after half a year, it just doesn't seem to be doing that as is.