What would like to see: A PC History

[steeldragons]

We have had/are having multitude of (some very good) discussions of both crunchy and fluffy topics. How should racial modifiers work? What races should be in game, at all? How classes should increase in power...and if this or that is balanced or not? Spells & magic, settings, whether or not to use tiers/separate "games", and a slew of other things.

My inquiry, for this thread, is forgettign all of the +'s and -'s, how themes v. race v. class will sort out or balance...or what any of those will entail...

Whether you want to think in terms of "Begginer/Expert/Master sets" or "Adventurer/Champion/Hero tiers" or simply "Low/Mid/High levels" of play doesn't really matter...but assuming there is going to be some kind of breakdown defining various levels of character development, the question is...

"How do you see or want to see your PC play and grow through the next edition?"

I'm thinking something along these lines:

At 1st level, my PC is...
-starting out in his adventuring career. Obviously.
-Getting XP, seeking out treasure and getting their proverbial "feet on the ground."
-Encountering monsters and traps and generally "how to" stuff with interacting with enemies/NPCs, environments (dungeons, villages and towns, bandits on the roadside, cultists in the abandoned moathouse, etc.).
-I have my starting skills and ability scores, my weapons/magics of choice, and I'm figuring out how to use them and get better with their use.
-Go after "the dragon"?! Are you nuts!!?!!

By 5th level, my PC is...
-Pretty dern good at adventuring. They have gleaned themselves something of a local reputation (for good or ill). Day-to-day money worries don't really exist.
-Their class skills and abilities are growing in diversity (likely improved/grown from what they started with at 1st level and some new ones they've picked up along the way).
-They likely have a decent primary magic or masterwork weapon/item or two, maybe a secondary "good" magic item (a shield, some armor, a cloak or ring or something) and a few minor trinkets that are helpful in limited situations.
-Their spell use is gaining in noticeable power for the region they started in.
-Their aptitudes in and out of combat are firmly established.
-They are likely, and ready, to take on bigger/broader challenges, explore further afield, possibly even are in the notice/at the beck-and-call of both local and neighboring lords/nobility.
-Going after "that dragon"they've been hearing about, with their group of friends, is a perceivable objective.

By 10th level, my PC is...
-A noted hero (or villain) of the realm (possibly multiple realms).
-Their reputation has attracted the attention of would-be followers, either for protection, training or just plain service.
-The powers-that-be (both mortal and immortal) consider them worthy champions of their causes (or enemies of the state!).
-Their futures are secure...possibly with the acquisition of their own land and/or stronghold.
-There is little they haven't come across, little they feel they can not handle...in the normal physical world. Their magical powers are not taken lightly by anyone! Their prowess in skills in and out of combat are near legendary.
-They have a diverse portfolio of abilities and skills of all types. Most likely an impressive array of magical weapons, items and added powers (be they "grown/developed" from their original weapons or found anew) that are sung about by minstrels in courts across the world.
-Likely have a dragon or two mounted on their wall or notched into their belt or spear haft. Maybe even one they slew alone!

By 15th level, my PC is...
-A lord among men (or their race of choice). Their realm is viewed as a beacon of hope and justice (or a pit of vile villainy and wickedness).
-They have likely traversed through many regions, realms and planes of existence that few know about and none fear to tread.
-They have skills, weapons, magic (some of which they may have created themselves in their "downtime" months/years of "running/managing their realm/guild/tower/temple/Hall of Justice or Secret Stronghold") and even armies at their command to handle everything from the lowest marauder to an invading kingdom or horde of demons.
-With the aid of a few of their 15th level friends, taking out an entire flight of dragons, demon lord or minor deity is far from out of the question.

By 20th level, my PC is...
-Entering "Epic" level play...which I can not really speak to...other than the general analogy that you're playing parcheesi with the gods and getting invited to dinner parties by friends you've acquired in different realities (I'm going back to that '20th century Earth' place or 'that spaceship in the Romulus cluster' we were in last week...care to join me?). But it should/would be "Epic"!

So...regardless of (or kinda "glossing over") the rules that may or may not be in the new game...what/how do you want to see your PC throughout play?

--SD

 

[stevelabny]

Everything past level 1 is about twice as fast as I would (unless XP is available super slowly or the requirements per level were super high)

By level 5, I think the PCs should barely be competent, and the dragon should still be something they wouldn't even think about.

Around Level 10 is where they should first be comfortable with themselves and their abilities. Have a good sense of what they are and where they're going. Strongholds? Followers? Um, a dilapidated shack and a kobold named Meepo maybe. I can see the possibility of them being named "baron" of a tiny area maybe, but with the reward almost being more of a curse than a blessing.

Level 15 is where their reputation really starts to take shape and they start to meet some of the real bigwigs...but not as equals.

Level 20 is your level 10. Now they can start acquiring followers and a real base of operations and champion a cause.

Your level 20 is my level 30? 40? 50? I dunno.

I don't see any reason to rush through things. Let the characters breathe, let them explore the world and give them options for which factions they might want to join or assist or stop.

 

[Yora]

I'd like to have a steady pace of character advancement, but at small steps, so you don't grow quickly in power. Also, with higher levels, you should become able to defeat larger and more enemies at the same time, without ever becomming invincible towards anything. When it takes 2 goblins to take you down at 1st level, it may take 20 goblins to do that at 10th level. But no matter how high in level you are, a sufficient number of goblins will always be able to bring you down.

 

[RangerWickett]

1st level . . . who plays first level PCs? They're wimps. A 1st level fighter's just a guy who likes to wrassle, and a 1st level wizard is like Harry Potter when he starts Hogwarts. I mean, most 1st level characters should be children. Let's start at 5th level.

5th level . . . you've had a few months of hard core training, either on the job or in boot camp. A typical soldier just out of training? 5th level. A typical wizard's apprentice, after a couple years of study? 5th level. Y'know, let's start as actual bad-asses, okay?

10th level. Now we're talking. A war vet. A respected wizard. We're gonna kick some butt.

But making 10th level characters either needs to be really fast . . . or we need to be war vets and respected wizards at 1st level.

 

[Sunseeker]

I like a quick advancement from 1-5, though the "feel" doesn't change much in that time. EX:
At level 1 you are the farm boy.
You fight off rats, you arrest someone, maybe fight a rogue orc.
By level 5 you are the grunt in the militia.

From level 6-10 I slow things down, wherein 1-5 you might level every game-night, you now might level once or twice a month(given a weekly campaign), EX:
Level 6 you are making your way in the ranks.
You clear out a bandit hideout(not the bandit stronghold though).
You might fight an orc raiding party.
You may encounter a young dragon, but will still probably get your butt handed to you.
By level 10, you're a well known soldier/wizard. You are at least half-way through the ranks, and though you do not explicitly have minions, you can request aid from the lower ranks(they can still refuse though, or your chain of command might not approve).

Levels 11-15 slow down further(you now might level one a month, if our sessions are regular and adventure-packed, otherwise, 2-month minimum).
You do more, perhaps you go back to best that young dragon.
You deal with the bandit stronghold, but still may not defeat it.
You might raid the orc war-camp for a change, though you might lose.
You are higher in command now, if you are still in the order/militia. You may have branched out on your own, you might own a home or have a permanent room at the tavern. You'll have groupies(non-combat followers), and you might even have a few full-time subordinates.
By level 15, you might be considering starting your own feudal state, or taking over/running for office in your hometown.

Levels 16-20 slow down even more(If I level you before the year's out consider yourself lucky!).
You now may face the pissed-off mother of that dragon you killed.
The bandit lord you failed to kill apparently has gotten the backing of some greater demons.
Those Orcs see your new stronghold as a tasty, treasure-packed target, and you face the full-force of their war party.
You likely have a town, a castle, or something to your own now. Whether you run it directly or not is up to you, but it will provide you will resources and followers depending depending on how well you treat them.
By level 20, you are the major-domo in the lands, at least you might be if you've survived and are still allies with your original companions, otherwise you're looking something more like WWII Europe.

IF the game goes past level 20(which I've never done a game past), you have outgrown rulership of a mere feudal estate. You are likely outgrowing morality, or reaching the very ends of it. You will, from this point on, generally be seeking to conquer or explore new lands, to move up to immortality, demi, or full-blown god-hood. By level 30, you are one of the most powerful beings in the localized cosmos, even your minions are angelic/demonic/extra-planar hosts. You are likely considered to be the primary diety of your world or one of an alliance, should you have not killed your friends to get ahead.

----


This is of course designed for a more "local" campaign roots, ie: you all start in Jamestown and go from there. For games which are more "epic" in nature, drawing a more diverse background of creatures and players, level 1 would be the equivalent of level 10. In the Core I would like to see the advancement of power follow a similar line, by whatever the endgame is you're near (demi)god-hood, with power and player advancement following along a "quick start" but "epic finish" style. Honestly I'd like the core rules regarding leveling to be fairly neutral and flexible in regards to specific campaigns, then there could be published and home-brew campaigns that are quick and super-powered, or slow and gritty.

 

[steeldragons]

Everything past level 1 is about twice as fast as I would (unless XP is available super slowly or the requirements per level were super high)

Well yes. I'm used to advancement being relatively slow. Quicker at lower levels and increasingly more difficult/longer to rise the higher you get.

Advancing beyond 10th, for example, is (or rather, I believe should be) much more difficult/take longer than getting from 1st to 5th or getting from 5th to 10th.

By level 5, I think the PCs should barely be competent, and the dragon should still be something they wouldn't even think about.

You are correct. I really should have made those "At x level" this is how/direction things start to go...not "By x level." A group of 5th shouldn't really want to be racing out after a dragon...but around 7th or 8th...they should be able to think about it with a reasonable chance of success.

Around Level 10 is where they should first be comfortable with themselves and their abilities. Have a good sense of what they are and where they're going. Strongholds? Followers? Um, a dilapidated shack and a kobold named Meepo maybe. I can see the possibility of them being named "baron" of a tiny area maybe, but with the reward almost being more of a curse than a blessing.

Again, that shoulda been what starts happening at 10th (which I would make "name level" across the board)...not "by 10th level."

Personally, I think 10th is a nice round easy number/level for things to either stop, whether the heroes ride off into the sunset on continuing untold adventures or settle down into the new role of "dominion/local ruler" or continue on in play with the making/building of that dominion or telling the stories that happen beyond that sunset.

It's a nice place to "leave off" a group if the players so desire and starting anew. Come back for some higher level play in some later game. Or handwaving "Ok, it's 2 years later. Everyone goes up a level from what you were. What've you been doing? Here's what's going on around the world."

Level 15 is where their reputation really starts to take shape and they start to meet some of the real bigwigs...but not as equals.

Level 20 is your level 10. Now they can start acquiring followers and a real base of operations and champion a cause.

Your level 20 is my level 30? 40? 50? I dunno.

I don't see any reason to rush through things. Let the characters breathe, let them explore the world and give them options for which factions they might want to join or assist or stop.

Well, I also should have stipulated, that none of this is meant to be implied as "rushed" or "easy".

I'd think getting from 1 to 5th should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-6 months or so of regular (once a week or every other week/twice a month?) play...going on an average from back when I was able to play like that, say a minimum of 4 hours a session.

I'd think/like, with that same rate of play, that getting from 5th to 10th could be accomplished in a year-year and a half. Essentially, it should take half-again as much time to get from 5-10th as it did to get from 1-5. With, then, getting from 10 to 15 taking half again as long as that, etc.

So a campaign could go on for multiple years if everyone so desires. But getting from 1-10 (or higher!) within a year of "real world" time would not really be plausible...without some serious, more regularly than once or longer than 6-8 hours a week, play.

I'd like to have a steady pace of character advancement, but at small steps, so you don't grow quickly in power. Also, with higher levels, you should become able to defeat larger and more enemies at the same time, without ever becoming invincible towards anything. When it takes 2 goblins to take you down at 1st level, it may take 20 goblins to do that at 10th level. But no matter how high in level you are, a sufficient number of goblins will always be able to bring you down.

Yes, I def. agree with that. Going out in an explosive blaze of glory fighting Orcus on his home plane is one way for the 12th level PC to go...being overwhelmed by the invading goblin army and (eventually) falling to a single poisoned arrow or knife blade of a goblin footsolider ..or a few bad dice rolls leaving you paralyzed in the heart of the ghoul nest/warren while the BBEG Necromancer you had meant to defeat watches you shredded to bits in mild amusement...is/should be also entirely possible...at any level.

--SD

 

[gweinel]

Nice post.
Well, i have played almost as you describe (OP) and maybe sometimes a little bit more heroic *BUT* ... i would love a more gritty and a more unti-heroic leveling. However, I don't imangine my characters (as a dm) to have much different leveling than the one you describe.
The problem is that the last years i really wanted to play a more realistic (as a game with magic, monsters, evil undeads and various planes of existance can be realistic), dirty, unti-heroic and surely more dangerous. The bad thing is i chose to implemend the above wishes with 4e. This resulted at 5th lvl my players to adventure in Hades (of course the problem isn't so much in the edition, but to my wrong perception of what 4th edition was about).

Now, more mature as a gamer (i wish) i envision the game:

0lvl-1st lvl: the players are not heroes. They are just "these strange persons" in the village. I little bit different, a little bit weirdos, a little bit wacky....
- They barely know what want to do in their lives. OR they know very exactly what to do, but they have not the right abilities and equipment to do it.
- To live they must earn the money. Maybe the adventuring gives them some coins but their background must come to use. They don't sell only their loot to earn their living but also must make horseshoes and swords, rise barley, hunt for furs, fish somes fishes, etc.
- They may have some magic items (max 1/person) but always these items are story based.
- They just get to know their imminent environment (area - province) and interact with it.
- Dragon? This creature of legend?

5th lvl: - They are learning their class. They progress their theme (background mechanics) and they get better. They have earned a bit of reputation and maybe they are known in their province.
- They earn most of their coins from the adventures, but sometimes they use their profession.
- Also they may find some strange magic item (low to medium power, and surely something interesting - not a +2 sword or sth like that).
- They know much about their kingdom and it is the right time to explore it. (medium sized kingdom... not an empire)
- Dragon? That creature of Legend really exists *there*?

10th lvl: - They are good at what their class do. They are known to their province and maybe some big fellas have heard em (the ruler maybe?).
- They attract some followers and maybe they are capable for some big things (i have in mind the realm spells and "how to rule a holding" from birthright).
- They know their kingdom fairly well and they have known the neighboring kingdoms. Maybe they had a planar glimpse.
- Dragon? That creature of legend is our adversary! He must be stopped!

10+... if they reach that lvl... we ll see.

This is the guide that i have for my campaign that i am preparing lately.

 

[Tallifer]

Occasionally I like to roleplay a lord and his estate.

But I usually want to roleplay the eternal adventurer. Like Elric who gave up all responsibility to wander the world in search of revenge, adventure, treasure and in service of the gods. Or like Lancelot who left his father's kingdom to quest and joust as a knight of the Round Table. And seduce a young queen.

As far as starting out, I prefer to simply roleplay that as a background. The game starts with me already as a knight or veteran or wizard or priest on a mission.

 

[steeldragons]

Occasionally I like to roleplay a lord and his estate.

But I usually want to roleplay the eternal adventurer. Like Elric who gave up all responsibility to wander the world in search of revenge, adventure, treasure and in service of the gods. Or like Lancelot who left his father's kingdom to quest and joust as a knight of the Round Table. And seduce a young queen.

As far as starting out, I prefer to simply roleplay that as a background. The game starts with me already as a knight or veteran or wizard or priest on a mission.

Sure, both ways are good and should be supported/possible. At what level, then do you think they should/would be getting their stronghold? Where/What levels do you think [or would want] "the game starts...already as a knight...on a mission"?

When I said they are [or are becoming] "lords among men" I didn't necessarily mean actual "titled lords", though that could be entirely possible.

But moreso that they are of such stature/infamy that the locals in Podunk town are going to "oo" and "ah" when they come by. Possibly moreso than if their actual "lord/noblility" came walking into town. They'll be recognized that those guys (and gals) in the song they heard in the tavern the other night or "Thems the fellas wut slew the mighty Breeyarp n' saved King Wutzizbut's crown" or what have you.

As being discussed over in the "Kings & Castles" thread, I definitely would like to see strongholds and realm-management (and ruler-problems to handle/adventures to have) written up as part of the game in the PHB. An option for higher level (10+) play or as additional level/element of the game/story while the heroes attempt to keep adventuring, to be incorporated, as wanted/makes things interesting for the group.

But by no means a mandatory "The questing stops here. You have a castle and live happily ever after"...unless that's what the group wants to do/play.