What Would Persuade You To Play A Fully Classed Fighter?

[Li Shenron]

My opinions:

They are now Improved Weapon Focus and Improved Weapon Specialization respectively. In addition, these feats now grant a +2 to weapon attack rolls and +4 to weapon damage rolls respectively (this stacks with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization).

I see your rationale, but I'd still say it's too good because they stack. I would have rather kept the feat as they were, and added a third WF and WS on the chain.

Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization

These feats are fine, but I would call them with a different name since the effect is different.

If you design high-level weapon-based feats, don't be afraid to use a requirement of Fighter level X. It'n not a bad design if the feat represents really a weapon-specialist tecnique (and if fact WS, GWF, GWS require Ftr4, Ftr8 and Ftr12). So you could devise a few others with requirement Ftr16 and even Ftr20 for example.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

What would persuade you to play a fully classed fighter?

Turn the fighter into the prime class for temporal power it was actually meant to be. Grant the Leadership feat as soon as possible, and give some details of the worldly careers a fighter can choose from at higher levels. Contrary to most other classes, the fighter isn't meant to stand alone at higher levels. He's supposed to lead men into battle, command a small army of his own, and eventually rule a tract of land. Reducing him to the "fighting machine" part of a pseudo-computer game does him no justice at all. Set up career choices, like "Knight at a lord's court" or "Leader of a mercenary group". Make sure it still keeps him in the adventuring game, though. Work with books like the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook or the Book of Strongholds and Dynasties to enable a fighter build a fortress for himself and his men. Award him (or her, of course!) land at some point in his career, or other rewards for his deeds, because usually the deeds of a fighter up to a certain level will have caught the attention of a ruler who would love to add that fighting potential to his army.

In short, don't tack on more rules mechanics and leave it to the player to puzzle out some roleplaying from it...create a bunch of roleplaying options and integrate them into the class' rules.
The same can be said for some of the other classes, by the way...barbarian forming a tribe, a rogue forming his own little gang, a wizard with an apprentice and a tower, a cleric leading a cloistered school, etc. A class becomes more attractive by how much it can move in the world the character is played in, not just by how many points of damage it can dispense with a single hit.

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

Heres a possibly Option

1st Level : Bonus Feat + Exotic Weapon Proficiency
2nd Level : Bonus Feat
3rd Level : Weapon Focus
4th Level : Bonus Feat
5th Level : Weapon Specialisation
6th Level : Bonus Feat
7th Level : Leadership (as someone mentioned)
8th Level : Bonus feat
9th Level : Tactical Mastery (whatever version it is now, its been changed so often)

The basic idea is to fill in the gaps where he doesnt get bonus feats to add something that might be considered "intrinsically Fighterish". After 8th, maybe start giving him Improved focus, or weapon Specialisation, or just give him more of the basic for free, so hes good with a variety of weapons. Possibly the tactical feats from the "Complete Warrior" book.

I think to make the fighter more viable than a PrC, you have to lok at the main difference, the PrC tends ot be a specialist, hes good in one area, where the fighter is the Jack of all trades (In respect to fighters) where the fighter loses out, is most PrC fighter classes do just as well in the broad spectrum of fighting as the PrC, but they get better specialist abilities. Most people, by the time they take the PrC, already have all they want from the fighter with respect to fighting styles and speciailsation. There is, as you have pointed out, no reason to keep on being a fighter.

So you have to make the fighters Jack of all Trades skills, better than the PrC fall back skills, things that will inspire his comrades to fight better, better tactical knowledge for any situation, compared to the PrC's specialisation.

He could at high level get certain abilities

He doesnt cause AoO's from movements, he has learnt through many years of fighting, how to move and not leave himeself open in combat

At high level he cant be flanked, so enemeis dont get a bonus, nor does he lose his dexterity bonus (Yes like the barbarian, but higher level)

He needs somethign to dominate the battlefield, something that PrC's cant do, so the enemy knows they are fighting a true warrior, now some chain master or weapon master, and they better be careful, because he will counter almost anything they can throw at him.

Feegle Out

 

[the Jester]

Good high-level combat feats are all it takes to 'fix' the fighter imho. I've written up a ton imc and love things like tactical and style feats (Complete Warrior). As a dm I've run the party's dumb tank in an epic game for quite some time, and he was a lot of fun.

 

[FireLance]

Here's an idea. Have the effectiveness of fighter feats depend on the number of fighter feats a character has.

A 20th-level fighter has 11 bonus feats from his class in addition to the 7 that every character gets and maybe one more bonus feat for being human. This gives him a maximum of 18 or 19 potential fighter feats.

Let's say Weapon Focus grants a +1 to hit with a weapon, +1 for every 6 fighter feats. A 20th-level fighter who has sunk all his feats into fighter feats gets +4 to hit with a weapon he has Weapon Focus in.

Let's say Weapon Specialization grants a +2 to damage, +1 for every 3 fighter feats. The same 20th-level fighter gets +8 to damage with a weapon he has specialized in.

If Improved Initiative grants a +4 bonus to initiative, +1 for every 4 fighter feats, the 20th-level fighter gets a +8 bonus on initiative checks.

Make Toughness a fighter feat, and have it grant +3 hit points, +1 for every other fighter feat. The 20th-level fighter would have 20 extra hp.

Instead of a point-for-point trade-off, have Combat Expertise work off the fight defensively mechanic. With Combat Expertise, when you fight defensively, you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC, +1 for every 4 fighter feats. The 20th-level fighter gets a +6 dodge bonus to AC for a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

How does that sound?

 

[Staffan]

Iron Heroes has an interesting fighter ability for thier fighter class - they get Switchable feats. You get 3 of these by level 20, adn IIRC, you can choose, at the beginning of the day, a feat which you meet the prereqs for. The next day, you can choose i different one.

Actually, they're even better than that. You don't have to choose until you actually use the feat.

 

[airwalkrr]

I've read all the comments so far. Thanks a lot for the help everyone. However there is one suggestion that really sticks out for me. It is Geron Raveneye's.

Turn the fighter into the prime class for temporal power it was actually meant to be. Grant the Leadership feat as soon as possible, and give some details of the worldly careers a fighter can choose from at higher levels. Contrary to most other classes, the fighter isn't meant to stand alone at higher levels. He's supposed to lead men into battle, command a small army of his own, and eventually rule a tract of land. Reducing him to the "fighting machine" part of a pseudo-computer game does him no justice at all. Set up career choices, like "Knight at a lord's court" or "Leader of a mercenary group". Make sure it still keeps him in the adventuring game, though. Work with books like the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook or the Book of Strongholds and Dynasties to enable a fighter build a fortress for himself and his men. Award him (or her, of course!) land at some point in his career, or other rewards for his deeds, because usually the deeds of a fighter up to a certain level will have caught the attention of a ruler who would love to add that fighting potential to his army.

In short, don't tack on more rules mechanics and leave it to the player to puzzle out some roleplaying from it...create a bunch of roleplaying options and integrate them into the class' rules.
The same can be said for some of the other classes, by the way...barbarian forming a tribe, a rogue forming his own little gang, a wizard with an apprentice and a tower, a cleric leading a cloistered school, etc. A class becomes more attractive by how much it can move in the world the character is played in, not just by how many points of damage it can dispense with a single hit.

Now I would like to adapt this idea just a tad. I would say the fighter gets Leadership at 5th level (5th seems to be a level where a lot of characters stop leveling in fighter since it only gives BAB, hit dice, and skill points). I am fond of this idea for a couple of reasons. First of all, it takes the fighter class back to its OD&D roots where fighters got followers. That was always cool. Second of all, it gives the Fighter something before any other character class can possibly get it. However, I will tweak this idea just a little bit and say that this bonus Leadership feat the fighter gets only counts his levels in fighter towards his Leadership score. Quite frankly, I think this will solve all the fighter's problems. Not only does he get to level up, but so does his cohort which is a whole handful of bonus abilities in itself.

On top of that, at 11th level, I'm going to also give him the Landlord feat from the Stronghold Builder's Guide. His followers decide to put down and build him a stronghold and his influence is such that he derives a small plot of land from a noble or king in his homeland or nearby his current residence. Much like his bonus Leadership feat, this feat only benefits from his levels in fighter. This should provide numerous role-playing opportunities and it doesn't mess with the core abilities of the class much at all.

And just to throw him a bone, I will also create an extra two fighter feats available at 16th and 20th level that are a bit more moderate in power and easy to adjudicate, yet still very nifty. Let me know what you think.

Superior Weapon Focus
You are especially good at using many weapons.
Prerequisite: Greater Weapon Focus with at least one weapon, fighter level 16th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using any weapon you are proficient with. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on attack rolls, including the one from Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus (see below).
Special: A fighter must have Superior Weapon Focus to gain the Superior Weapon Specialization feat.
A fighter may select Superior Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38).

Greater Weapon Specialization
You deal extra damage when using many weapons.
Prerequisite: Greater Weapon Specialization with at least one weapon, fighter level 20th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using any weapon you are proficient with. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on damage rolls, including the one from Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization (see below).
Special: A fighter may select Superior Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38).

 

[airwalkrr]

Here's what I came up with. Note, I use the Reputation system from Unearthed Arcana and the Stronghold Builder's Guild in my campaign.

FIGHTER
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Table: The Fighter
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Leadership
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Landlord
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus feat
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Renown
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
Leadership: At 5th level, a fighter becomes such a beacon of prestige that he begins to attract a loyal cohort and followers. A fighter is treated as having the leadership feat, but only his fighter levels count towards his leadership score.
A fighter who slaughters his cohort and all his followers is reviled. He may seek another cohort, but he suffers a -2 modifier to his leadership score for cruelty, -2 for the purposes of finding a cohort because he caused the death of a cohort, and -1 for the purposes of attracting followers because he caused the death of other followers. Additionally, a fighter gains a +2 bonus to his reputation score for notoriety and if his reputation was previously considered famous, he is now infamous.
Landlord: At 11th level, a fighter influence and power are such that he derives a small plot of land from a noble of king from his homeland or near his current residence. His followers settle the land and begin to construct a stronghold from which to lead his glorious legions. A fighter is treated as having the landlord feat, but only his fighter levels count towards his level for determining his stronghold allowance. Having a stronghold grants a fighter a +2 bonus to his leadership score.
A fighter who betrays his liege lord loses the benefit of his landlord ability. He may still gain a stronghold by other means (such as force), but he still cannot benefit from his landlord ability until he makes restitution or swears fealty to another lord. Such an event is unlikely however, for traitors can rarely be trusted, and even in those rare cases, the new lord will undoubtedly require some great service or valuable gift to be persuaded. Additionally, a fighter gains a +2 bonus to his reputation score for notoriety and if his reputation was previously considered famous, he is now infamous.
Renown: At 17th level, a fighter’s exploits are so well known throughout the world that his face is recognized virtually everywhere. He gains the Renown feat and a +2 modifier to his leadership score for great renown (if he has already earned this modifier, the bonus it grants simply improves by 1).

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

If everyone bans PrCs that are based around doing a particular fighting style extra well (archery, mounted, dual wielding, etc), which try hard to undermine the fighter's strength of feats, the fighter looks good again. Imo, while these PrC exist they kill the core concept of the fighter of being the sole class that can truly excell in any given style.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

If you only allow me to use the feats from the PHB you'll probably never see me play a straight up fighter levels 1-20 (a couple levels of barbarian and/or ranger and/or rogue will probably get added in). However if you let me use feats from supplements paticuarly complete warrior (I love tactical feats) its much more feasible to play a fighter for 20 levels.