What would you do if you were....[Race and Culture Thread]

[Primitive Screwhead]

Spatzimaus It was a half remembered thread you and I partook of a while back that sparked this work for me.. how does my final version pan out against what you use?

 

[Spatzimaus]

Spatzimaus It was a half remembered thread you and I partook of a while back that sparked this work for me.. how does my final version pan out against what you use?

Yeah, I thought it sounded familiar. I hadn't read too closely at first, but when I went back through it again and read the Thin Blood part, it all came back to me.

What you've described is pretty similar to what my group used to use (probably around the time of the previous conversation?), before we switched to our current, simpler system (detailed in my previous post). There were a few reasons for the change:

> Originally, we had tied this to backgrounds. If you picked the "street" background, you got one set of skills, if you picked "merchant" you got a different one, and so on. We had a dozen or so. The problem was that for a given class, one background became clearly optimal.
> Then we tried regions, similar to how you and the FRCS handle it. Inevitably, people wanted to create custom regions that had exactly the skill/weapon combo they wanted most. It wasn't just pure powergaming, some of the combos were perfectly reasonable. But it still led to the same problem; for a given race/class, one region usually became clearly optimal. Or, one region became exactly what you needed to qualify for a certain PrC (Example: a Sorcerer who wanted to go Loremaster, which'd still give full spellcasting progression and better class skills, with no real downside).
> Then we tried switching this to a racial system; for most races it's okay to have one racial skill set and a single set of "preferred" weapons, but for Humans it just wasn't practical. Too much diversity. That's why we made the Humans as open-ended as we did, in the end; by accepting that people would pick the region with the skills, weapons, etc. as close to their ideal as they wanted, we figured it'd just be easier to make a single open-ended framework for the Humans from the start. The only problem with that was, would an Elf raised in Human lands get better bonuses than he would in Elf lands? It's a bit iffy, at present.

Then, there were other issues:
> Weapon proficiencies: these really only mattered to non-weapon classes (casters, etc.), plus the occasional Rogue or Bard. So, they weren't really very balanced; they're too all-or-nothing. Familiarities help with this a bit, but it's still a problem. Take the Elves and longswords, for instance; an Elven Wizard can use a longsword or bow just fine, which gives him no motivation to ever take Martial Weapon Proficiency (or multiclass into a weapon-using class).
Our solution here was to completely rework how weapon proficiencies work by reintroducing AD&D-style "proficiency groups". It really helped the situation, but it's not a short discussion.
> Favored Classes were a BIG problem. When we tied these to regions or backgrounds, it overshadowed everything else; non-Humans would pick their background primarily based on what class they intended to take.
In theory, they'd allow people from that region/race to dip into a class for a level or two without penalty. In practice, it worked the other way; people could pick a class they knew they wanted to "major" in (say, Barbarian), find a region that had that as favored, and then easily mix a level or two of front-loaded classes (Fighter, Ranger, Rogue) in to strengthen the character.
Of course, this was only for non-casters, since casters lose too much multiclassing (usually), and it really diluted the Human/Half-Elf "Any" favored bonus.

Anyway, overall impressions:
1> Giving certain skill combos as class skills (for instance, Hide and Move Silently for the Demon Wastes or Umbragen) might cause balance problems for non-stealth classes with skill points to burn (Wizard!). I'd switch it to Hide and Spot for the Demon Wastes, and Umbragen could get Move Silently and Listen just like the lizardfolk jungles.
2> I think you'll have plenty of headaches with Umbragen, as it gives +2 WIS. There's a reason no PHB races have a boost to a casting stat. You might not have any powergamers in your group, but some of the ones I've played with would jump at that in a heartbeat for a LOT of classes.
3> If Humans don't get their Favored Class (Any) any more, they're effectively weaker relative to the other races. As a counterbalance, you could say that while Dwarves are effectively limited to the Dwarven regions (plus maybe a couple cosmopolitan ones), and Elves to the Elven regions, etc., Humans can pick ANY region.
4> I like how most of the Favored Weapon combos are either two melee weapons or a melee and some exotic (net, spiked armor, etc.), because the classic sword+bow combo too often meant you had no need for anything else. But you've still got a few with that combine one ranged with one melee (Talentas, Eldeen Reaches, and of course the basic elves in Aerenal); if the Talenta Boomerang is exotic, I don't see a problem, but if it's Martial you'd have issues. Also, quite a few regions seem to have the Flails as their favored weapons; I'd diversify that a bit more.
5> How exactly does "Favored Weapon: Medium Armor" (Darguun) work? Automatic proficiency in it? (Maybe it should just be "Free Medium Armor proficiency if you have Light Armor proficiency", but that'd really only benefit a small number of classes.)

But overall, it seems fine, especially if you're not playing with a bunch of munchkins who gravitate towards the powergaming ideal at every step. As someone who HAS played with/been one of those types, though, I'd recommend a few tweaks.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Thanks for the review.. and no, I don't usually have power gamers floating around in my group for very long. Something about the standard rule I have ... "If you get it, so do I..."
Tends to keep the really broken mechanics from being exploited.

But.. on to your comments!
{and thank you very much for providing them..}

1> Giving certain skill combos as class skills...

Agreed, I was mostly winging these. I changed on my local document and will update the online version here if I have enough other changes.

2> I think you'll have plenty of headaches with Umbragen...

Definately agreed. The stats are based on splitting a Drow stat-block in half, so if you build an Elf race Umbragen Culture you end up with pretty close to the drow stats. The culture is designed as a Full Blood, so only Elves will take it. IMC the umbragen are strickly tied to thier Xendrik clans and there are no 'special adventurer' types who will be off in Khorvaire...where the campaign is. I but them in mainly for future use.

3> If Humans don't get their Favored Class (Any) any more...

And part of this is intentional. Yes, Humans can pick almost any region while full-blooded races are stuck with only thier home regions. Also this puts a mechanical face on the broad stereotype of 'most Kharnathians are martially minded'. My intent was to turn the fluff of the ECS where it states that nationality means more than race into crunch.
I have to consider adding a favored class (Any) or (Choose one) to humans.. you are right, the current version would limit multi-classing somewhat.

4> I like how most of the Favored Weapon combos ...

THe Talenta weapons are indeed exotic, and yes, Flails were a bit prevalent but I was working from only PHB weapons and wanted to get away from the Sword being the best thing around. Didn't have too many choices that really were good without adding more weapons.


5> How exactly does "Favored Weapon: Medium Armor" (Darguun) work? Automatic proficiency in it? (Maybe it should just be "Free Medium Armor proficiency if you have Light Armor proficiency", but that'd really only benefit a small number of classes.)

Y'know.. I am not really sure... I mean, yes its meant to be a free armor proficiency as the idea of the Goblinoids favoring heavier armor makes sense to me. Hadn't considerd the benefit to the small number of classes. Perhaps allow them to treat armor as one catergory lighter for proficiency, Max Dex, and arcane failure?


ANy system that gets complicated can be abused.. I think this one isn't too bad off.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Thanks for the review.. and no, I don't usually have power gamers floating around in my group for very long. Something about the standard rule I have ... "If you get it, so do I..."
Tends to keep the really broken mechanics from being exploited.

Up to a point, I agree. But I've played with people who weren't stopped by that, and the campaign devolved to which side could come up with rule abuses faster, which wasn't fun for those who tried to play it straight.
Not saying that'd happen here, but I keep it in mind whenever I'm tempted to throw unbalanced stuff into the campaign.

1> Giving certain skill combos as class skills...

Looking back on this, I'd suggest a couple other things:
1A> Don't use so many "good" skills (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen), the ones pretty much everyone uses at some point or another. That, more than anything else, is an open invitation to powergaming.
For instance, instead of Listen and Move Silently for a jungle, how about Knowledge(nature) and/or Survival?
1B> Try to pick the skills such that no class would already have both as class skills. This isn't always possible, but it's something to aim for. Point being, if a Ranger is from a region whose bonus class skills are ones he already gets, what's the benefit? (Answer: maybe a permanent +1 to that skill's checks? But then what happens if someone waits until later to take that class, do they still get it?)

2> I think you'll have plenty of headaches with Umbragen...

Definately agreed. The stats are based on splitting a Drow stat-block in half, so if you build an Elf race Umbragen Culture you end up with pretty close to the drow stats.

Aren't the Drow LA+1? Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to try putting LA-requiring stuff into the region rules. In fact, I wouldn't put anything that modifies stats into the rules at all, and just keep the whole "subraces" concept from 3E. If a normal Elf was raised in the Underdark, he wouldn't suddenly develop magic resistance or anything...

4> I like how most of the Favored Weapon combos ...

THe Talenta weapons are indeed exotic, and yes, Flails were a bit prevalent but I was working from only PHB weapons and wanted to get away from the Sword being the best thing around. Didn't have too many choices that really were good without adding more weapons.

You could go Mace (Light), Mace (Heavy), Quarterstaff for one, for instance. Or maybe something with all the Hammers. Or a Whip... there are quite a few I didn't see on your list.

In fact, I'd really recommend switching more of these "regional" weapons to Exotic weapons. An extra Martial proficiency really isn't worth much; only Rogues, Bards, and Clerics really benefit. (Wiz and Sor don't have the BAB or DEX for it; the Druids I know use wildshaping too much to depend on weapons; and the rest of the classes get all the martials already.) Well, there are the NPC classes, of course, but frankly I wouldn't design this for them.

5> How exactly does "Favored Weapon: Medium Armor" (Darguun) work?

Perhaps allow them to treat armor as one catergory lighter for proficiency, Max Dex, and arcane failure?

Way too much. Maybe just say that while wearing Medium armor, their movement speed isn't reduced (sort of like how Dwarves can move in Medium or Heavy). Or maybe just cut the armor check penalty for medium armors by a couple points.

The problem with armor proficiencies is that it's so all-or-nothing. Wizards and Sorcerers just don't have a need for it, and it's more trouble than it's worth. (I played a multiclassed Sorcerer who used armor. Trust me.) Rogues and Rangers get light armor, but they don't usually WANT anything heavier because of the armor check/pseudofeat issues. Barbarians won't wear anything that costs them their movement penalty. Druids and Bards won't wear anything that costs them their spellcasting (which tends to mean they stick to Light armors). Monks won't wear armor, period. And most of the rest of the classes get Heavy armor already.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to imply this system is bad off. It could use a few small tweaks, and now's the time to do it, but it's pretty complete as-is.

 

[Quartz]

Try digging out a copy of Fantasy Hero and look at the cultural and racial package deals.

 

[Nyaricus]

Just thought I'd pop in here to mention I am rekindling my campaign-creation fever, and am beginning work on new Race/Culture Packages for it, using some of the above guidelines (not to mention the creation of some of my base classes, now long-overdue). Thanks again for this great idea; I'll be getting a lot of mileage out of this

And this, ladies and gents, is why EN World is an amazing place to be

Cheers,
--N

 

[SpiralBound]

Primitive Screwhead, you have a pretty cool idea here that I may take and use myself. I do have a few questions and observations though.

1) Here is what I think the core idea of your system is, let me know if I've "got it". You're separating the 'assumed setting' from the racial descriptions & rules so that any race can be from any culture and there will be an easy-to-use system for allowing this and determining how race 'A' is affected by living in culture 'B'.

2) Does this mean that if I were to take a Halfling and have them raised in Mhor-Hold, that all I need do is take the 'Halfling' Racial Aspect and apply the 'Mhor-Hold' Cultural Aspect? Are they intended to allow mixing and matching between racial and cultural aspects like this?

3) If my assumptions in #2 about the intent of the system are correct, then I *think* that you've structured the Orcish and Elven Racial/Cultural packages incorrectly. Can I take the 'Halfling' Racial Aspect and apply the Orcish 'cultural' aspect of 'fullblooded'? Or how about an 'Aerenal' or 'Umbragen' Halfling? It really seems like you're blending racial traits back into the cultural aspects... In an earlier post you state, "Basically I am keeping anything that can be explained by genetics, such as good spacial oreintation, in the Racial aspect..and moving any skill based stuff into the Cultural." Some of your Cultural aspects feel more like racial factors than cultural ones. Does it make sense to boost the stats of a Halfling to match the Elven members of the Aerenal culture?

4) Perhaps you need to make half-races a distinctive Racial Aspect to maintain the separation between race and culture? Or maybe you need to define just what does it mean to be a "half" anything? Make a separate feat or aspect that is the "you're half Human" trait and have this be something that can be applied to ANY other race to make a "Half-x" version. Want a Half-Bugbear? Just apply the Racial Feat 'Half-Human' or 'Human Lineage' to the 'Bugbear' Racial aspect and you're done. What do you think?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Thanks.. and any suggestions to improve this would be welcome

You are right on #1 and #2. My reason for working on this springs from running an Eberron game where nationality is supposedly more important than race.. which the RAW does not handle well.

As far as #3, the Full-Blood cultural aspects include prerequisites of the race they spring from. Basically all the full-bloods come from cultural enclaves such as Aerenal or deep in Xendrik. This way you cannot have a Valenarian Halfing but you can have a Talenta Elf...which would really be a half-elf.

All the Half-X characters are from races that have a Full-Blood option, but take a different culture. If someone wanted to play a Half-Gnoll, I would work up the racial aspect in much the same way I did the other ones. The races that can only breed pure, Like Humans and Halfings, only take on the mantle of another culture but never gain mixed blood.

I still need to work up the non-core races that could appear IMC, and rework the Umbragen in accordance with some of the new info I have read about them.. but of course I also need a new group to inflict these rules on in playtest

 

[The Forsaken One]

I would finally sink Eversink, eh PC?

And for the rest... *jumps on the bandwagon and points at Iron Heros*.

 

[SpiralBound]

Thanks.. and any suggestions to improve this would be welcome

You are right on #1 and #2. My reason for working on this springs from running an Eberron game where nationality is supposedly more important than race.. which the RAW does not handle well.

This sounds very interesting and I will be working on this idea for my next campaign.

As far as #3, the Full-Blood cultural aspects include prerequisites of the race they spring from. Basically all the full-bloods come from cultural enclaves such as Aerenal or deep in Xendrik. This way you cannot have a Valenarian Halfing but you can have a Talenta Elf...which would really be a half-elf.

All the Half-X characters are from races that have a Full-Blood option, but take a different culture. If someone wanted to play a Half-Gnoll, I would work up the racial aspect in much the same way I did the other ones. The races that can only breed pure, Like Humans and Halfings, only take on the mantle of another culture but never gain mixed blood.

If I understand you correctly, this is why I'll be making my own version rather than simply taking yours straight up. It looks to me that your system isn't as "pure" or "setting-neutral" in practice as your original concept promised. There appears to be some blurring between "race" and "culture" in the structure of your system. Some of the inconsistencies of your system appear to be done deliberately to better suit the Eberron setting, which I am not familar with. For these reasons, I'll be taking your core concepts and making my own version of this system that can be applied to any setting and can structurally allow any race/culture combo without a given combo breaking the system. I emphasis "structurally" because a given setting may not allow certain combo's, but I'm placing such limitations within the domain of the setting, not as an inherent factor of the system itself which is what it appears you are doing.

Please don't misunderstand me: I am not saying that your approach is "wrong" - it just isn't what I want from such a system. If your implementation of this idea works for your purposes, then more power to you. Based upon your frst post, I was expecting a more universal system, both in it's own structure and in it's applicability to multiple settings, than what you seem to be creating as this thread progresses. If you are interested, I can post (either here or in a separate thread) what my system ends up becoming so that you can compare it to yours.