What would you do with this oathbreaking paladin?

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Everyone,

It seems like the motives of the Paladin ran something along the lines of:

"I have this magnificently wrought arrow of dragon slaying that could smite you in a twinkling but I am going to forego this weapon as a sign of my earnest, goodly and wise intentions towards you in terms of current discussions."

How wise, intelligent, cowardly or noble this motive was is moot. The paladin took an oath - which I assume has some level of importance in your game - to use it to slay evil dragons or to pass it on to others more disposed or courageous to use it. The thought of such a Paladin foresaking this seems worthy of some form of action. Stripping him of the privileges and powers bestowed upon him would be a suitable course of action.

However, what is the Paladin's code? If keeping one's oath or word is not part of their code, then perhaps the Paladin should just cop a little voltage for his grevious error in attempting to deal in such a way with a presumably evil entity. Otherwise, his God should teach him that his word is his bond with the world and that breaking it shames himself, his God and his order. I say atonement is on the cards.

As for greater good; fine act that way but at the expense of your Paladinhood. The path a Paladin must walk is narrow indeed.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Amal Shukup]

Definite violation of the spirit of the Oath. A Paladin who doesn't keep his sworn word isn't...

I've no REAL problem with a Paladin negotiating with evil under certain circumstances - Lawful Good is not a suicide pact or a license to be a fool. However, if said negotiation required violating the Code ("kill me that innocent peasant", or "give me that arrow you've sworn not to") then I expect the Paladin to step up and die like the Holy Warrior he his.

Once the Oath was broken, I see no alternative to nixing the Paladinhood.

On the other hand, Players aren't their characters and it is difficult sometimes to remember what a character said or did a long time past. If the player typically played true to the CoC, I would have fired off a note or perhaps called a sidebar to make sure the violation was deliberate rather than just a player error made in the heat of the moment.

If he regularly played fast and loose, or if he went ahead anyway, too bad.

I would also REQUIRE (as part of any atonement effort) that the arrow be recovered. If a good dragon is slain by that arrow in the meantime, that's an end to it. In fact that might well involve further retribution...

Sure it's tough. Don't want to make the hard calls? Play a Fighter.

It goes both ways IMC: If a Paladin player chooses certain death over the 'easy' (but evil) compromise, they are rewarded. Perhaps they find themselves aided in battle by archons, or the deceased Paladin's remains become the object of an NPC's quest and the hero raised by an adoring clergy... If nothing else, the Player would get some substantial (and transferable) reward to apply to their new character...

A'Mal

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Aaaah, paladins. Nothing seems to bring up player-DM discord quite so well.

I would definately NOT take his Paladinhood in one fell swoop. Give him a warning, yes. Cut the effects of all spells by 50%, maybe. But I would not destroy his character in one fell swoop.

As a sensitive sort of person myself, I'd react to that in one of three ways:
1. Arguement followed by making a new character, probablly a rogue.
2. Quiet brooding followed by quitting the game.
3. Seeming indifference followed by ridiculously bad play decisions
4. Several more attempts to get you to see my side of things before deciding that the game was not worth my time.

The thing about it is, no matter how deserved this is, it sounds like it came out of the blue. In which case, it will seem not only arbitrary and baseless, but also hateful.

And to make things even worse, atonement is going to suck. If I felt that it wasn't worthwhile the atonement would either be:
1. Too easy, proving that this is the sort of thing that I can expect to happen often.
2. Too hard, proving that I am getting dicked over.

edit: If, on the other hand, your player is a thick skinned sort, or one who enjoys tough love, more power to you, and enjoy the ride.

 

[SemperJase]

As Silveras pointed out, the purpose of the oath was to prevent the arrow from falling into evil hands and it clearly spelled out that idea.

Punishment is in order for the character. The code doesn't make any distinction for ends justifying the means. This is Lawful good. The rules are the rules and in place to prevent evil - not judge when it is convenient to follow them. If he did it for "the greatest good", lawful good is about sacrifice.

Now the question becomes how much punishment is appropriate? It also depends on your campaign. Do you provide for atonement? Is it possible to restore his paladinhood?

There are some serious metagame issues as well. It should be fun for your players. There is a balance between punishing the character and taking all the fun away from the player. Can your player work with you to play his character as remorseful and resolute to restore not only his paladinhood, but his honor as well?

 

[Nightfall]

If I'm a god, I'm sending an angel to hound his ass.

 

[Snoweel]

What would you do with this oathbreaking paladin?

Poke him in the eye.

 

[Whitey]

Here's a pretty straightforward approach to handling this.
Does the paladin's oath, the potential breaking of that oath, and the subsequent quest for redemption or descent into scumbucketry, provide interesting and meaningful decisions/goals for the character? A paladin character needs to be the type with a lot of ethical gravitas, and a strong relationship with the deity that empowers them. The oath they take is a big one - it's a compact that makes them martial champions of good, not some deal with an arrow, or some knight, or to not jaywalk. The oath they take hangs heavy on them, but it's not there to hang them with.

Does the paladin's oath, the potential breaking of that oath, and the subsequent quest for redemption or descent into scumbucketry, provide interesting and meaningful decisions for the player? If the player comes to see the oath as something that's there to penalize them, to detract from their ability to portray that character - whether it's by following or failing its strictures, that's likely to lead to a disinterested or angry player. The oath is not a lobotomy. The player should have that choice in their actions, even if it means facing some consequences.

Paladins don't cower under the blankets, wondering if they've earned the ire of a fearsome deity which could well lead to their death. Blackguards, maybe.
Paladins don't exist to kill everything with a different alignment, stopping only when they are killed. Blackguards, maybe. Paladins take a sacred oath to uphold the cause of Big G Good - Good does not screw with its adherants, but rewards them for being just and seeks to keep them on an earnest path.

 

[Sejs]

I would definately NOT take his Paladinhood in one fell swoop. Give him a warning, yes. Cut the effects of all spells by 50%, maybe. But I would not destroy his character in one fell swoop.

Seconded.

Stripping a paladin's status for one infraction is basically telling the player "Screw your fun, I don't care. You messed up once so no treat for you, jerk."

It's an easy way to lose a player, it's nearly guarenteed to lose the character. Generally once a paladin loses their status over something like that the first time they're quickly shelved becuase walking that tightrope isn't fun. It's like having to go to a job interview instead of gaming with your friends.

Be somewhat leanient and your players will be happier than they would be if you're a hard***.

 

[robberbaron]

I am soundly in the side of "let the Paladin know that what he did was BAD but not enough to kick him out of the High and Mighty Club".
After all, though the big blue couldn't use the arrow himself, being a BBEG he must have minions who could.

Take his CHA bonus to saves away. That is what my GM did to me when my Paladin inadvertantly (trusting one of them to do a job I should have done myself) caused the deaths of a couple of meek.
Really caused me to take a good look at how I played and I think I've been on the straightish and narrow since.

If you are too harsh you risk losing the Paladin for good. Too soft and he'll contravene "the code" whenever he can get away with it.

You could always work in the slaying of a good dragon with the arrow to really rub it in and make the Pal feel bad.

 

[Treebore]

I agree the Paladins decision/forgetfulness should be punished, but at the level of a warning/penance; not destruction of a character it sounds like he has spent a lot of time playing.

I also disagree that the Blue Dragon is guaranteed to use the arrow. I think he will destroy it. Give it to a minion? yeah, right!

"here minion, take this arrow of dragon slaying and put it to good use."

"yes, master." Minion takes arrow, walks away. Goes out of Dragons sight, puts some nice potent dragon poison on the arrow
(he has been waiting many years to assassinate the Dragon for all the insults, slights, and demeaning jobs he has suffered/done over the years)

He then takes position in a good spot, takes careful aim, fires all the arrows, including the additional ones with poison on them. Then prays to the God/s of vengeance that the dragon is overcome by the poison, the magic of the arrow, or both.

No, if i were the Blue dragon, or any dragon, i would destroy it. That is the best use for such an arrow.