What would you want in a book of naval rules?

At least a nod to historical accuracy. Celebrim, for example, mentioned a ship of the line. That's fine, but, sort of out of place in most D&D campaigns where a ship of the line quite possibly would be seen during the American Revolution and even the War of 1812. It's pretty anachronistic for a typical D&D setting. Anything more advanced than what Columbus sailed to the New World (unless you start getting into Chinese ships) is going to be problematic.

That's why I mentioned comparing ships from different eras. While it's true that a SOL is as anachronistic in your typical D&D pseudo-medieval setting as a jacquard loom or steam engine, in some settings all three items would be acceptable in some form or the other. Many settings, even 'default' ones, implicitly featuring mechanical objects every bit as complicated as any of my examples in the form of traps, and even have these things made of stone sitting in three thousand year old tombs.

I think it is a mistake to make too many assumptions about what people are playing. Some people may be inspired by galley warfare and the ram, based on watching something like Ben Hur (forgetting the historical inaccurcies in that for a moment) or from reading about the Peloponnesian War. Others may be going for Harn World like heavy medievalism, and period accuracy right down to the Viking longships. Still others may prefer more accessible and more modern periods inspired by the great age of pirates, Errol Flynn movies, or the great age of sail.

In my case, the lengthy campaign I played in was Great Age of Sail inspired on the grounds that this was the most interesting period in Naval Warfare and the one most often romanticized in story. So, while SOL were anachronism in a sense, in a very real sense its impossible to say what is an anchronism in a fantasy world with a culture, history, cosmology and even science far different than are own. While in this world SOL's weren't invented until the 18th century, with the exception of firearms, lots of things in D&D that are accepted without question didn't show up until much latter than the 14th century in the forms they are described or imagined in. Based on the costuming, most of the Walt Disney princess films occur in the 19th century. The average campaign is filled with anachronisms of every sort, and its probably not possible for the average person to imagine a D&D world without filling it with anachronisms.
 

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And this is where I had done a metric crap-ton of historical reasearch. I hunted down stats on a bunch of sailing ships of all sizes. length, width, draft, # decks, # of sails.

I then deduced some simple patterns, based on the length of the ship to get the other stats. In the end, you could define a ship by its length, and get the other factors for free.

Where this had impact, is once you know how many decks, and the length/width, it becomes obvious how many guns, ballistae or catapults you can put on it. Every D&D ship I'd ever seen puts in maybe 7 weapons on a ship. Taking the idea of the 100 gun warship, that same thing can be done with ballistae instead. They may take more space, but you can still pack in more than 7 of them.

This was something I'd realized pretty early on as well. One of my first 'DM PC's' was the pirate commander of a high tech sailing vessel called the 'Sea Griffon' that featured a broadside of 6 ballista on each side. I thought I was soo cool. "Look at me, I can give my NPC's toys you aren't allowed to buy." Forgive me, I was 12.

However, there is a reason why you never saw that sort of thing in the real world, and its not lack of space for it aboard the ships. The real reason you never saw it develop in the real world was the relative ineffectiveness of mechanical seige engines against thick wooden hulled sailing vessels. In the era where ballista were occasionally mounted on ships, those vessels were rowed. To be rowed successfully required the designers to put a premium on weight, which meant the hulls had to be very very thin. So, a balista might make some sense as a secondary weapon against a galley. By the great age of sail, sailing technology had advanced to the point that you could have very thick wooden armor belts along the sides of warships. As a result, war ships were often immune or virtually immune to the _cannon fire_ of a vessel that carried smaller guns than it could carry. Heavy cannon balls shot at 1000 -1200 mph would literally just bounce off the 12"-24" thick layered oak planks. A mere ballista bolt, fired at 1/6th the speed, would simply not be capable of doing significant damage to a wooden sailing vessel and would have had a fraction of the range.

That's the reason that what limited naval warfare their was in the real middle ages was dominated by static boarding actions where the tactics were essentially the same as those on land. Fleets would crash together and they'd fight from ship to ship. No one invented seige ships carrying banks of ballistas not because they were stupid, but because it wouldn't have been worth the cost. And that's the reason why when you see sailing vessels show up in source books or adventures, its usually something more inspired by Master and Commander or Pirates of the Carribean than real medieval naval technology.

That being said, I think it would be a mistake to tell people what to play or what they can't play. There is no reason why for the purposes of a narrative you can't just assume that heavy mangonells work about as well at destroying ships as heavy cannon (with perhaps more limited range), and if players want to replace a cannon load out on a man-o-war or ship-of-the-line with mechanical engines and pretend that it all works, then that should be an option. It's not 'realistic', but it works if you want for whatever reasons a game without firearms but with the drama of age of sail warships.

Historically, the big difference in ship designs is size got bigger over time, enabling larger weapon load-outs, etc. So pre-Pirates of the caribean/master & commander ships just need to be set to smaller sizes and the rest should work itself out.

Part of this is that cannon casting technology was improving at the same time as sailing technology. Prior to being able to cast larger cannon, you didn't need a larger ship. You only needed a ship as large as could carry your largest cannons. That was principally determined by the beam of a ship, and so since the ratio of beam to length needed to stay roughly constant in order to have good sailing characteristics, as the cannon that ships carried got heavier the number of heaviest guns that the ship could carry increased with it. But in point of fact, some of the highest gun counts were by great ships in the early 17th century, when guns were seen primarily as anti-personnel weapons that detered or aided boarding actions. This is in no small part due to the fact that small guns were much easier to produce with the available technology than big guns.

However, it was pretty much clear to everyone from the defeat of the Spainish Armada on, that the future was in bigger ships carrying bigger guns, because it was with bigger ships with bigger guns that the English beat the Spainish so badly.

What, you thought the English had smaller ships? You fell for British propaganda. If you go back and look at the order of battle, the Brits actually had larger warships and more large warships, and they were of the more advanced design - fewer big guns rather than many small guns.
 

I personally still not sold on the historical research angle. No other aspect of a D&D setting is historically accurate (well, depends on your settings, I guess, but most aren't), so I don't see why ships should be. Especially where magic is involved! Nothing wrong with water-elemental powered uberships and fireball based figurehead weaponry on the prow. At least, in my mind. :)

As for the win - I would assume magic affects that, too. Druids on board, or even just the usual magical design of an expensive ship which enables it to control that sort of thing from the wheel.

I guess it's a bit like 5E - you'd need to produce modular scaling plugins to suit everyone!

I don't have a problem with that....

My D&D campaign had 1700's era sailing ships with cannons just fine

My main point with the formulas is, make the ships moderately realistic in dimensions. If nothing else, if you offer pre-built designs, consult some formulas to check their "realism" before you finalize the stats. The users don't need to be exposed to that stuff.
 

My main point with the formulas is, make the ships moderately realistic in dimensions. If nothing else, if you offer pre-built designs, consult some formulas to check their "realism" before you finalize the stats. The users don't need to be exposed to that stuff.

But again, for me, I gotta say that doesn't suit my personal fantasy-world sensibilities. WotBS had a mile-long airship and Star Wars has a Death Star; I feel that behemoth ships quarter of a mile long have their place in a fantasy setting, as do magically powered ships which move much faster than physics would allow.

If armour, weapons, races, creatures, and buildings don't have to obey the laws of physics and follow any kind of historical realism, I don't see why ships should be an exception.

All this is nothing to do with what Ryan's doing, BTW. I don't know what he's doing on the creative side (though I'm sure I'll find out soon enough). Just my own personal preference.
 

I don't have a problem with that....

My D&D campaign had 1700's era sailing ships with cannons just fine

My main point with the formulas is, make the ships moderately realistic in dimensions. If nothing else, if you offer pre-built designs, consult some formulas to check their "realism" before you finalize the stats. The users don't need to be exposed to that stuff.
Actually if you provide a basic formula for ship sizes, most DM's won't mind designing some of their own.

Keel vs Beam
Overall Length vs Overall Width

Set a base formula for Galleys, Transports, Ships of the Line, etc. If there is a base of each 'class' of ship in the book than many would be happy with that.
 

But again, for me, I gotta say that doesn't suit my personal fantasy-world sensibilities. WotBS had a mile-long airship and Star Wars has a Death Star; I feel that behemoth ships quarter of a mile long have their place in a fantasy setting, as do magically powered ships which move much faster than physics would allow.

If armour, weapons, races, creatures, and buildings don't have to obey the laws of physics and follow any kind of historical realism, I don't see why ships should be an exception.

All this is nothing to do with what Ryan's doing, BTW. I don't know what he's doing on the creative side (though I'm sure I'll find out soon enough). Just my own personal preference.

Magics always break the 'rules'.
And the Death Star broke it's own rules in whatever system you wanted to play in with it.
But airships and space vessels don't follow normal sea worthy rules.

Using the historical references gives a good baseline for a normal ship.
You add in magics and alternatives after that. Just like armor or weapons have to be a normal masterwork item prior to enchanting it. The same could be said of the ships.
You have to start with a base before you advance into things that require anything but the ability to float on water.
 

I think it's always important to know the rules before you break them. You don't have to make the book totally historical, but I find most people (even people like Morrus, who like a good fantasty) prefer that their fantasy has some basis in reality.

I don't think the book should get bogged down with simulation either, but some good simple "rules of thumb" to help DMs throw some narrative towards wind and weather (for example) would be welcome by all, I would think.

Some thoughts:

The "Weather Gage" as described earlier sounds like a good way to allow weather to contribute during combat without being cumbersome (some advice on how to describe the story effects of having it or not would be good too).

I also think throwing something equally simple for wind during travel would be a good idea.

I recommend making ships larger than they really were when you're making maps of them. The truth is, you'd probably have more like upwards of ten people fighting in a 5' square in a real boarding action. It's probably far simpler to just make the ships bigger than they should be and leave it at that, rather than messing with the scale of combat.
 

But again, for me, I gotta say that doesn't suit my personal fantasy-world sensibilities. WotBS had a mile-long airship and Star Wars has a Death Star; I feel that behemoth ships quarter of a mile long have their place in a fantasy setting, as do magically powered ships which move much faster than physics would allow.

If armour, weapons, races, creatures, and buildings don't have to obey the laws of physics and follow any kind of historical realism, I don't see why ships should be an exception.

All this is nothing to do with what Ryan's doing, BTW. I don't know what he's doing on the creative side (though I'm sure I'll find out soon enough). Just my own personal preference.

I don't think my formulas invalidate that. In many ways, my formulas demonstrated that ships should be BETTER than any rules I had seen D&D or it's add-ons produce.

Forex, your 1/4 mile behemoth warship:
length: 1250'
Width: 312'
Height: 203'
Draft: 152'
Decks: 34.8
Masts: 21
Speed: -2860 (interesting result per the formula at this scale)
Weapons Slots: 109627
Cargo: 649310
Hull Thickness: 23"
Crew: 5683
Turn Rate: 550'
Hull Points: 12449
Sail Points: 1705

I have no problem with the formula allowing for this massive ship. Though my math for massive ships goofs up the speed (the ship is so slow it goes backwards)

My point would be, make sure any ships the rules create have semi-realistic numbers. The amount of cargo and weapons space should be plausible to the size of the ship.
 

It probably won't help you, since you're developing this now, but Lou Agresta has submitted, Fire as She Bears, as a master and commander ruleset for Age of Sail (for PF/d20) to be published by Rite Publishing, which hasn't been released yet. It might have given some good ideas for you, if it were released before you finish development. Oh well...
 

But again, for me, I gotta say that doesn't suit my personal fantasy-world sensibilities. WotBS had a mile-long airship and Star Wars has a Death Star; I feel that behemoth ships quarter of a mile long have their place in a fantasy setting, as do magically powered ships which move much faster than physics would allow.

If armour, weapons, races, creatures, and buildings don't have to obey the laws of physics and follow any kind of historical realism, I don't see why ships should be an exception.

The thing about sensibilities is that we've all got them, and they are all different.

TSR in 2e, and now WotC in 4e IMO most got in trouble by assuming that everyone's sensibilities basically matched their own or could be made to match their own. They made too many assumptions about how people played or maybe about how people ought to play and they tried via the rules to force people to play that game.

D&D is played by very diverse groups with very different campaigns. In some campaigns, mile long floating fortresses complete with towers, minerets, and hundreds of trebuchets and arsenals of magical weaponry make perfect sense. In others, the DM is going to want have boarding actions by mailed knights on round ships with high castles fore and aft where the corvus represent high-tech weaponry. In still others, steam powered ironclad dwarven dreadnoughts laden with dragon mouthed bombards will clash with their orcish counter-parts. None of these are wrong, and one of the big problems I've seen with many sea campaign books is that they have a tendency to make assumptions about how people want to play or should play.

Ideally for me, the rules are good when I can set up my campaign for somewhat realistic bronze age galley warfare, and then, later I decide I want to introduce as a 'foe' in the campaign a fantasy version of a late 19th century pre-dreadnaught controlled by an evil wizard and I can actually make that work.
 

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