What would you want in a book of naval rules?

[TheYeti1775]

1. Not every ship has casters.
2. Dispel Magic and Counterspell are quite handy for Casters. Not everyone uses the rules as such.
3. Some ship Captains might ban open flames, so no flame spells. Every sailor's biggiest fear after drowning is the ship afire.

It really matters if your playing low / medium / high magic style as well.
If your playing low, than your mages that can throw fireballs multiple times are going to be few and far in between.
The higher in magic level you get, the more likely the ship itself will have enchantments on it to protect itself from fires and what not. Figurehead of Spell Turning, things like that.

 

[Celebrim]

You might be able to turn the D&D magic part into a positive, not merely neutralize it with defensive magic. You make it part of resource management. For example, when masts and sails are made, they are routinely magically treated to resist a certain amount of fire, lightning, etc. It is not indefinite, but it is enough to make popping off a lot of fireball charges not the most economically feasible way to take out a ship at range. (Defense should always be far cheaper than offense, if you want to preserve sailing and boarding.)

- emphasis added

Therein lies the crux of the problem. Historically, in D&D makes offense far cheaper than defense, presumably to discourage the PC's from engaging in boring turtle strategies where they don't take the initiative or manage to make themselves effectively immune.

Practical defensive magic is fairly rare in D&D. It's a problem I've discussed several times in the reoccuring, "Does magic render castles obselete?" threads. The answer is that magic doesn't, but the rules as written might. It's not an uncorrectable problem, but it is one that D&D doesn't traditionally address. And unless you are willing to accept that warships are simply vulnerable magecraft carriers and that naval warfare consists of launching air strikes of mobile wand wielding mages at your foes, then you have to address it when writing up rules and setting information for a naval game.

 

[Hussar]

1. Not every ship has casters.

Considering the cost of a ship, not having a caster would be suicidal. We're talking a several thousand gp investment in a single merchant ship. Why on earth wouldn't you have a wizard and a cleric on board? That would be like expecting a castle to not have a wizard and cleric.

2. Dispel Magic and Counterspell are quite handy for Casters. Not everyone uses the rules as such.

I used to think that too. Until I realized that Dispel Magic has a range of Medium (100 feet+10/caster level) and fireball has a range of Long (400 ft+40 feet/caster level). There's no way that you're going to be able to counter spell with dispel magic.

And, at the ranges we're talking about, actual counter spelling is virtually impossible too. You need to make a Spellcraft check - but, you also need to actually SEE the enemy caster as well. Good luck seeing that enemy caster in the middle of a ship 700 feet away using a wand. And that's hoping you actually have the right spells memorized to effectively counterspell.

3. Some ship Captains might ban open flames, so no flame spells. Every sailor's biggiest fear after drowning is the ship afire.

Umm, no? That would be like a Captain banning cannons on his ship. Never mind that the actual owner of the ship might have a lot more to say about this than the individual captain, but, also, fireball is likely the least of your worries when an enemy caster can drop Call Lightning from MILES away (depending on edition), summon water or air elementals to absolutely devastate your ship, or simply drop a Wall of Ice in front of you ship and watch your smash into the resulting iceburg.

It really matters if your playing low / medium / high magic style as well.
If your playing low, than your mages that can throw fireballs multiple times are going to be few and far in between.
The higher in magic level you get, the more likely the ship itself will have enchantments on it to protect itself from fires and what not. Figurehead of Spell Turning, things like that.

See, that's where it becomes a problem. As Celebrim rightly points out, D&D magic is not balanced for this kind of game. The arms race goes into high gear as soon as you put PC's on a ship. Because, even if you want a low magic game, the PC wizard is going to have an absolute field day because no one else has any defenses against what he can bring to the table.

 

[gamerprinter]

Because, even if you want a low magic game, the PC wizard is going to have an absolute field day because no one else has any defenses against what he can bring to the table.

I guess it depends on how low your low magic setting is. I've played low magic D&D that had no casters available, or only adepts - definitely no wizards or sorcerers. Or when the bard is the only caster...

If no casters, no field day...

 

[Radiating Gnome]

A couple of thoughts:

1. On the subject of building ships: Back in the dark ages, when I did a year of Navy ROTC and was taking naval science classes, there was a concept that I had a terrible time understanding because it wasn't intuitive to me. But it's a basic law of physics: the maximum speed of a ship is determined by it's length(it has to do with the bow wave -- the faster you go, the bigger the bow wave you make -- but the bow wave can't be longer than the beam(length) of the ship, or the ship falls in the trough). The longer the ship, the faster it can potentially go. That's why clippers were so long and skinny -- that was how they managed to push for greater speed.

I was a kid who had grown up on star wars and wanted small, sprightly ships that could sail circles around bigger ones -- and it's still possible if the bigger ship is not designed for speed -- but if you want a ship to be fast, you make it as long as you can, then pack on as much sail as you can (so you drive it as close as possible to it's limit).

I have no idea if that detail helps in any way. I just can't help myself. But in a game where you're still traveling on water -- even with some sort of magical propulsion, if ships are expected to sail on the water then their speed should still be limited by their length -- unless you find a way to circumvent those physical limitations (hyroplanes, hovercraft, etc -- ships that get the hull up out of the water and away from those limitations).

2. I'm a huge fan of the age of fighting sail -- I've read tons of histories, biographies, the Hornblower/Aubrey/etc books and a lot more. I'd love to set a game in this world.

Having said that, if this supplement includes a ton of player options and new rules -- new feats, new skills, etc -- I'll probably havea very difficult time finding a way to use it in my game.

IMO (and probably just mine) a supplement like this is best as a DM resource -- help the DM create the skill challenges and narratives and encounters and so on -- help him create the game -- but as much as possible do it without requiring new PC options. Use existing skills, spells, rituals, and so on, as much as is possible.

It's a hard line to take, but the reality is that my game is heavily dependent upon the Character builder (4e game). If the players need a bunch of custom content from a supplement like this, that means that we can't use the builder to create characters. And that means that I need to manually check all their hand-made characters. And, call me a lazy good-for-nothing if you like, but that's probably enough of a drag to keep me from using the resource.

Of course, that's probably not going to satisfy most of your readers -- but in that case, you might want to add a section to the book that addresses alternatives to the new player content you create that will suit DMs like me who are too lazy to break away from digital crutches like the character builder.

-rg

 

[Janx]

A couple of thoughts:

1. On the subject of building ships: Back in the dark ages, when I did a year of Navy ROTC and was taking naval science classes, there was a concept that I had a terrible time understanding because it wasn't intuitive to me. But it's a basic law of physics: the maximum speed of a ship is determined by it's length(it has to do with the bow wave -- the faster you go, the bigger the bow wave you make -- but the bow wave can't be longer than the beam(length) of the ship, or the ship falls in the trough). The longer the ship, the faster it can potentially go. That's why clippers were so long and skinny -- that was how they managed to push for greater speed.

That's a cool factoid. I hadn't heard of this, but had realized that longer skinnier ships were faster than wider short ships.

So I had researched as many ships as I could to deduce patterns in length, width, # sails and speed.

At the simplest, I defined a ratio of length/width which was used in my speed calculation so that longer, skinnier ships went faster than wider or shorter ships.

it seemed to work out, except for the 1/4 mile long ship that Morrus wanted

 

[Radiating Gnome]

So, like I said, it was a long time ago, and I was not a great student at the time.

Here's a better, more complete explanation.

Heavy Boats, Light Boats, and Hull Speed - Antrim Associates Naval Architects

Key points there are that light hulls -- ships designed to skim across the water (like multi-hulled ships (catamarans, etc) can get past the limitations of hull speed and move a lot faster, but are more adversely affected by water conditions, weather, etc.

 

[Hussar]

I guess it depends on how low your low magic setting is. I've played low magic D&D that had no casters available, or only adepts - definitely no wizards or sorcerers. Or when the bard is the only caster...

If no casters, no field day...

Well, sure, if you want to take it that far down the line. Then again, why on earth would you use D&D for this? There are far, far better systems that don't require you to strip out 3/5 of the rules.

 

[gamerprinter]

Well, sure, if you want to take it that far down the line. Then again, why on earth would you use D&D for this? There are far, far better systems that don't require you to strip out 3/5 of the rules.

True, and I prefer the full and normal magic game, but have run low magic in this way using 3x, without much of a problem. Why buy another game, when the existing one can work fine, even with 2/5 of the game cut out. I see no problem with this.

 

[RangerWickett]

(Reposted from the front page news.)

We're producing a short sourcebook for naval adventures in role-playing games, in particular Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder (and possibly other systems, based on pledges). We'd like your support for our Kickstarter project.

Many of the most famous explorers and adventurers of history and fiction traveled by ship, but fantasy role-playing games seldom give much love to the high seas. There are whole realms of aqueous action where players and game masters have to fumble along, and since most gamers don't spend their weekends as corsairs it's not easy to just wing it.

We at E.N. Publishing want to sail to the rescue. Our ZEITGEIST Adventure Path includes a wide variety of naval encounters, and we've developed simplified rules for GMs to handle those scenarios quickly. But there are so many more possible adventures at sea than we can fit into our series, so we'd like to expand the quick-play rules into a short sourcebook for naval gaming, Admiral o' the High Seas.

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AotHS will help you to enliven your game with sea chases, boarding actions, broadsides, sea serpents and krakens, triremes capsized by hurricanes, galleons torn apart by maelstroms, windskiffs jousting with dragons, pirate ships prowling the seas for plunder, and maybe even a bit of merchants navigating to unseen shores to seek the booty of foreign lands, if you're into that sort of thing. Those who've only ever seen a masthead when they go to Wikipedia will find enough information about the nature of sailing to fake it in their games. And because we know gamers come in different styles, you'll have quick-to-play options as well as more tactical rules.

(But just to warn the hard-core sail enthusiasts up front, no, we probably won't be 100% accurate. I'm fascinated by the huge variety of sail plans used in different winds, but while real naval engagements might have taken hours, we figure most gamers don't have the patience for true fidelity when they're doing their best Johnny Depp impersonation. Savvy?)

Our staff is already pretty busy working on ZEITGEIST, so we're seeking the support of the gaming community via Kickstarter to cover the costs of art, cartography, and additional writing. Admiral o' the High Seas will be compatible with D&D Fourth Edition and Pathfinder, and depending on our funding we'll consider including conversion notes for other popular game systems.

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The first goal, $1000, covers the cost a 32-page book, with a utilitarian array of six ships depicted - trireme, cutter, merchant ship, warship, and steam-powered fantasy warship. Beyond that we can afford more ship maps -- longboats, galleons, ironclads, nautiliuses, airships, windskiffs, and more. If we hit $2000 we'll have the resources to playtest our custom ship-creation system and make sure it's balanced, so your high-level adventurers can cruise around in a heavily armored dreadnought, a swift clipper with a lightning cannon, a sentient airship crewed by ghosts, or the TARDIS.

If we crack $5000, we'll include fleet rules, for when sending only a hundred men to a watery death just isn't enough. And if we break $10,000, we'll design a bonus adventure for everyone who contributes -- a side-plot of the ZEITGEIST adventure path, but designed to be used in any D&D or Pathfinder campaign. Anything beyond that will be used to provide more luxurious art and maps for future adventures.

Rewards for contributors come in two main types. For those who have their own campaigns, we're offering printed books and accessories like ship maps, tokens, and nautical charts. For gamers who want to use the naval rules to enrich their ZEITGEIST games, we're offering the chance to make a mark on the setting, winning naming rights and creative involvement with NPCs, locations, and vessels that will show up throughout the campaign.

(A note about the reward packages. While E.N. Publishing is based out of the United Kingdom, the vendors who'll be producing the physical products are in the US, so we ask that non-US supporters include a bit extra to cover the cost of shipping.)

Our top contributors will have sway on what sorts of supplemental material makes it in, like brief vignettes inspired by their own naval games, or descriptions of maritime trade for those who want to evoke that aspect of history. And for those who provide the greatest support, you'll have the chance to game together at Gen Con Indianapolis, in a session run by the writer, Ryan Nock, where we'll smash an actual champagne bottle on something as we name it.

If you've ever longed to have your characters set sail, and been stymied by the lack of easy-to-run naval rules, we're looking for adventurous souls. Hop aboard.