What would you want in Epic?
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Nyaricus
First Post
mirivor said:
Thanks for the approval for my idea. I dunno, i am just one of those guys who likes things to be spells out even. I really don't like the idea of 20 "standard" levels - you are supposed to outmatch the populace by ENORMOUS AMOUNTS by about level 7 - how does that make sense? I dare you all to just read the FIRST POST of this thread (my guess is you'll read quite a few more as well) http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=97601 . This thread describes The Common Commoner - its shows you how out of whack D&D is statistic-wise. With a 100 level concept, many of these pitfalls can be avoided, since we are workign with standard numbers (100%). Anywasy, thast all for now, i really have to quit checking the boards at 1 a.m.
Thia Halmades
First Post
I'm actually curious where this thread is going to go, since I have to face the very real possibility of an Epic war campaign going to Hell here in a bit. Some things I've already taken into account:
- I'm not running a 'mega wealth' game to begin with, so that'll have to get tossed.
- I've found so far that the Relics in Comp.Div. are far more interesting as Epic type
items, with full histories, etc., than any listed Epic item in the core book.
- Why is this entire system dependent on wealth management? That's a major flaw of the current RAW, IMO. (Sorry for the acronyms). Anything which heaves that out the window is an improvement.
- I actually agree with Nyaricus. You, stop staring. No, seriously. While I wouldn't know what to do with 100 levels - to me it's just too spaced out - I submit that I've had to revise the rules significantly to account for commoners, experts, etc. I have 16th level Experts running around my campaign, but they're otherwise unremarkable. Just because you're a rocket scientist (or an Imperial Alchemist with a swank room & lab at the castle) doesn't mean you can swing a sword.
- Everyone needs to stop mocking the Paladin. Sheesh. Leave my Sacred Cow alone.
- Lastly, as far as a 100 level progression, when I say 'too spaced out' I mean that other than having to revise the entire freaking system, you don't gain enough power over that period to make leveling seem worthwhile. Instead of leveling up constantly and having tons of 'empty' levels, you level up in 1/5th the time, but are generally rewarded at each level up. For a massive level up list, I turn to either EQ (60? I think?) and Pokemon (100 each). Lots of dead air in some of those classes, which might not work as well in a table top setting.
I'm not ruling it out as much as I'm saying I wouldn't want the headache of designing & playtesting it. I think it could work, but we'd be talking about tossing RAW completely.
Nine Hands: I also use that variant. Along with it, a nat20 adds '10' to the final roll, instead of guaranteed success, and a nat1 deducts 10 from the final roll. Also, I have players roll to confirm botches (going flat-footed & losing a turn, generally) during combat from overstretching. One of the best things I ever did, actually put the importance back on the players build, instead of randomly hoping they'd natch.
- I'm not running a 'mega wealth' game to begin with, so that'll have to get tossed.
- I've found so far that the Relics in Comp.Div. are far more interesting as Epic type
items, with full histories, etc., than any listed Epic item in the core book.
- Why is this entire system dependent on wealth management? That's a major flaw of the current RAW, IMO. (Sorry for the acronyms). Anything which heaves that out the window is an improvement.
- I actually agree with Nyaricus. You, stop staring. No, seriously. While I wouldn't know what to do with 100 levels - to me it's just too spaced out - I submit that I've had to revise the rules significantly to account for commoners, experts, etc. I have 16th level Experts running around my campaign, but they're otherwise unremarkable. Just because you're a rocket scientist (or an Imperial Alchemist with a swank room & lab at the castle) doesn't mean you can swing a sword.
- Everyone needs to stop mocking the Paladin. Sheesh. Leave my Sacred Cow alone.
- Lastly, as far as a 100 level progression, when I say 'too spaced out' I mean that other than having to revise the entire freaking system, you don't gain enough power over that period to make leveling seem worthwhile. Instead of leveling up constantly and having tons of 'empty' levels, you level up in 1/5th the time, but are generally rewarded at each level up. For a massive level up list, I turn to either EQ (60? I think?) and Pokemon (100 each). Lots of dead air in some of those classes, which might not work as well in a table top setting.
I'm not ruling it out as much as I'm saying I wouldn't want the headache of designing & playtesting it. I think it could work, but we'd be talking about tossing RAW completely.
Nine Hands: I also use that variant. Along with it, a nat20 adds '10' to the final roll, instead of guaranteed success, and a nat1 deducts 10 from the final roll. Also, I have players roll to confirm botches (going flat-footed & losing a turn, generally) during combat from overstretching. One of the best things I ever did, actually put the importance back on the players build, instead of randomly hoping they'd natch.
Nyaricus
First Post
Thia Halmades said:
While i agree that there would be many "empty levels" in a 100 level build (to further reference this, i got this idea mainly from Diablo 2 - except level 99 is tops, but lets not be picky here) if done correctly, it would be no worse then what the system looks like now. I mean, a round is 6 seconds - what the hell kinda number is that?? It's no better than the imperial system, which has some very obvious flaws when point to point compared to the Metric system. Personally, i'd call a round 10 seconds (in-game) and have clocks with 10 hours/day (in real life) if i had my way. Alas, perhaps only my comments referring to a 100 level build have any real weight in this thread. XD *chuckles*
To recap: if done correctly, a 100 level build would be no worse than a 20 level one - and would also make a lot more sense, IMO (and mirivor's and Thia's
) Oh, and Paladins should be PrC's (new thread, Thia?)comrade raoul
Explorer
I'd actually have an epic system in the general mold of OD&D (where there was an absolute cap at 36th level, at which point the only thing to do was try to become a god), in the sense that I'd pay a lot of attention to the kinds of stories you can tell about very, very powerful characters, and then build rules around those stories, allowing characters to smoothly, organically develop into heights of cosmic power. In other words, it pays to remember that when characters hit 20th level, they're already pretty darn "epic" -- they're more like comic-book superheroes than traditional fantasy characters (they can fly; they have super-strength; they can unleash devastating bolts of energy on a whim), and they can perform amazing deeds that can change the course of history. There's not a whole lot you can really go from there if you're still interested in telling an interesting story rather than re-enacting Dragon Ball Z: epic rules should be a way to conclude a campaign with a bang. (To put it another way: for one epic-level story done right, think of the Baldur's Gate 2 expansion, "Throne of Baal" -- in a relatively concise narrative, your character confronted his ultimate destiny, stood among the mightiest beings in the Forgotten Realms as an equal, and things basically ended there.)Reynard said:
IMO, the current rules take the opposite direction: they bend over backwards to make the system open-ended, at the price of a genuinely ad-hoc, fugly system and an increasingly nonsensical conception of just who the characters are. So I'd expand each class's progression by 10 levels (to a maximum of around 30) without changing the basic structure of the rules all that much. Class abilities would just be a logical progression of existing class features: you'd have 11th level, traditional, spells, not "epic spells"; you'd get the best magic items in the DMG and a few genuine artifacts, not wildly-priced epic items, and you'd spend a few levels fighting truly epic adversaries like great wyrms, the barbarian-emperor of all fire giants, Tiamat, demon princes, and, eventually, maybe deities (all with CRs capping out around the mid 30's) before everyone retires in the glorious planar city they've come to rule. Then, you'd roll up new characters.
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Thia Halmades
First Post
Nyaricus: The Paladin discussion isn't one I could reasonably contribute too. Far as I'm concerned, they're a powerful, but balanced class. They can hit, they can tank, they get Divine powers. They're no worse than a Monk or a well-feated out Fighter. Further, since I strictly enforce concepts of Lawful Good (and those concepts are up for debate) it's always been clear to the players what can get that status revoked. I've had a Paladin in my primary campaign for three years now and he has never once needed reigned in, adjusted, etc.
It isn't so much a 'sacred cow' as simply a great class that's now more a part of the D&D mythos than anything else. No touchy.
It isn't so much a 'sacred cow' as simply a great class that's now more a part of the D&D mythos than anything else. No touchy.
Nine Hands
Explorer
Thia Halmades said:
We use the open ended dice rolls (I think its listed in the Epic Level Handbook). We use Vitality/Wounds (with some major tweaks) plus Action Dice (heavily modified) from Spycraft. All in all the game works pretty well as I can kill most of them with a hit or two.
The problem an epic system needs to adress is not the maximum amount of levels
it is what happens when that maximum is breached
if your world has characters of level 30 but none higher then someone who becomes 31 is epic
if the max is 99 then 100 is epic
if the max is 100 than epic is 101
expanding the limit doesn't address the issue of epic
epic is hard because it is by nature outside the normal sphere of DnD
I understand what wotc was trying to do, make a fair balanced open ended system that covers everyone, not their best work
but most of it is usable
the trick is what parts need to be scrapped
proposal
ditch epic spells
and powers
lose epic progressions to save and attack rolls
most epic PrC's (many just feel wrong)
price bump for epic items
keep
epic feats
epic progressions for normal classes
change
use normal save and bab progressions in epic
give remaining epic PrC's bab and save ratings
what are the obvious problems with this set up
well a 25 level rouge has crap fortitude
so what its a rouge
just because your high level shouldn't mean all of a sudden your class has a different focus
it is what happens when that maximum is breached
if your world has characters of level 30 but none higher then someone who becomes 31 is epic
if the max is 99 then 100 is epic
if the max is 100 than epic is 101
expanding the limit doesn't address the issue of epic
epic is hard because it is by nature outside the normal sphere of DnD
I understand what wotc was trying to do, make a fair balanced open ended system that covers everyone, not their best work
but most of it is usable
the trick is what parts need to be scrapped
proposal
ditch epic spells
and powers
lose epic progressions to save and attack rolls
most epic PrC's (many just feel wrong)
price bump for epic items
keep
epic feats
epic progressions for normal classes
change
use normal save and bab progressions in epic
give remaining epic PrC's bab and save ratings
what are the obvious problems with this set up
well a 25 level rouge has crap fortitude
so what its a rouge
just because your high level shouldn't mean all of a sudden your class has a different focus
Fieari
Explorer
I'd prefer a system that doesn't have limits from the ground base. A system that seamlessly and balancedly can grant valid gameplay from 0th to Omega-th level. Possibly even levels beneath 0 (a creature so weak others are stronger around it? a weird concept but if the system was designed right, it'd be possible), or fractional levels (to cover plots akin to "Honey I shrunk the Kids" and make Fine-sized creatures distinguishable and such). An epsilon system, if you will. Where the same rules can cover a low lever dungeon romp or an epic battle for the solar system/galaxy/universe where the characters don't NEED spaceships because they're so powerful.
I believe that Upper Krust's system currently in development likely covers my needs, which is why I still follow his progress after all these years.
I believe that Upper Krust's system currently in development likely covers my needs, which is why I still follow his progress after all these years.
