What would you want in Epic?

[Fieari]

The Immortal's Handbook has that. 10 levels of angels above the Solars described, with stats for 7 of those, the highest one being the Seraphim, with a CR of 209 (ECL 313). Only one demon (CR 41, ECL 61) and one devil (CR 58, ECL 87) but also includes a daemon, which is like a demon or devil, but NE instead of LE or CE. It also describes the heirarchy of daemons (but doesn't give stats for any other than the one, which is CR 27. More daemon stats are promised for Volume II, whenever that might come out).

 

[comrade raoul]

I'd like to see some really epic demons and devils

See, I thought that was one of the few things the ELH did really well. Hundred-armed abominations spawned from the corrupted blood of deities? What's not to like?

 

[Nyaricus]

I understand what wotc was trying to do, make a fair balanced open ended system that covers everyone, not their best work

but most of it is usable

the trick is what parts need to be scrapped

proposal

ditch epic spells
and powers
lose epic progressions to save and attack rolls
most epic PrC's (many just feel wrong)
price bump for epic items

keep
epic feats
epic progressions for normal classes

change
use normal save and bab progressions in epic
give remaining epic PrC's bab and save ratings


what are the obvious problems with this set up
well a 25 level rouge has crap fortitude
so what its a rouge
just because your high level shouldn't mean all of a sudden your class has a different focus

Evolved, these are some very good points. Just because you are epic doesnt mean that your class focus should change suddenly - a fighter is a fighter is a fighter. I will have to keep this in my notes


I have a quibble here though . . .

The problem an epic system needs to adress is not the maximum amount of levels
it is what happens when that maximum is breached

if your world has characters of level 30 but none higher then someone who becomes 31 is epic

if the max is 99 then 100 is epic

if the max is 100 than epic is 101

expanding the limit doesn't address the issue of epic

epic is hard because it is by nature outside the normal sphere of DnD

I really don't think you understood what i was going for here. Instead of the system being "open ended" (like ELH basically puts it) i was going for a confined system. The great peoples of our (and fantasy worlds) histories and such are all going to be very high level. Probably 60+. I know my ideas proposed were vague, but thast because they are. This isn't a realised dream, yet. But i like the idea. What happens after level 100 in my system? Godhood is probably the most likely path. But that also requires a system, another one which is also not a realised dream. My only hope is that either i get busy and create something completely new and innovative, or that this insipres someone else to do it. I understand what you are trying to say, but i simply don't think you did for my own comments.

 

[comrade raoul]

I really don't think you understood what i was going for here. Instead of the system being "open ended" (like ELH basically puts it) i was going for a confined system. The great peoples of our (and fantasy worlds) histories and such are all going to be very high level. Probably 60+. I know my ideas proposed were vague, but thast because they are. This isn't a realised dream, yet. But i like the idea. What happens after level 100 in my system? Godhood is probably the most likely path. But that also requires a system, another one which is also not a realised dream. My only hope is that either i get busy and create something completely new and innovative, or that this insipres someone else to do it. I understand what you are trying to say, but i simply don't think you did for my own comments.

Nyaricus: The numbers all go to 100. Look, right across the board, 100, 100, 100 and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most systems go up to 20?
Nyaricus: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's more epic? Is it any more epic?
Nyaricus: Well, it's eighty higher, isn't it? It's not twenty. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at twenty. You're on twenty here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're twentieth level. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nyaricus: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to a hundred.
Nyaricus: A hundred. Exactly. Eighty higher.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make twenty more epic and make twenty be the top number and make that a little more epic?
Nyaricus: (pause) These go to a hundred.

 

[Thia Halmades]

As I was saying: I agree that there's a flaw in the system in representing commoners & expert types, but 100 really is too spaced out. So far I'm hearing the Epic system isn't all that 'Epic' - in a way, that's actually okay with me. It doesn't need to be "epic" in the crazy, broken, suddenly we're in a whole new category sense of the word. It really doesn't. It needs to represent what happens after 20th level, which is pretty close to the maximum human potential (in general, broad stroke theory). Epic is when you're reaching well beyond that potential. It should (as was said prior) simply represent what happens when you go past 20. And that's the rub.

Epic Feats are groovy. I'm down with that. But a lot of it involves having had numerous WISH spells tossed on you and having insane gear. Again, I'm in the 'anti-gear' camp, which means Epic is automatically problematic for me. When I say anti-gear, it's not because I don't want my players to be able to pimp out; it's because I want the gear they have to be important to them, and significant. I don't want them picking up a "+4 Frostbrand" and stowing it in their pack next to their "+5 Defender" and their "+3 Shocking Burst Great Axe." I leave that sort of power gaming to my Xbox.

I don't think anyone in my campaigns is going to have the 25 DEX to do the crazy thing. It's just not how the game is designed; so do I rework the entire Epic system? How do I get the players the power they deserve without making them super-heroes. I'm running a gritty world variant; I don't need people slinging lightning bolts from their weapons and flying all over the battle field. In that sense I would have preferred to keep the campaign low-level, but then just one Babau will consume the party and get fat sucking the marrow from their bones.

Bleargh.

 

[evolved]

give the badguys subtle gear like +5 collision wounding instead of +5 brilliant energy

 

[Aaron L]

I think the epic rules a great as is, with one exception: after a certain point a variable of 1-20 becomes meaningless, and there was no attempt to expand upon it.

 

[Crothian]

See, I thought that was one of the few things the ELH did really well. Hundred-armed abominations spawned from the corrupted blood of deities? What's not to like?

they aren't demons or devils.....the monsters are well done but they needed to cover more of the traditioanl evils like....dare I say...demons and devils

 

[evolved]

the designers were moving away from traditional outsiders because they wanted to bring the players closer to the gods them selves without being too direct so the abominations replace mere lackies of dieties


again to much focus on suddenly being different the biggest problem with the epic rules is that sudden jarring shift into a whol new level and without access to several wish spells or massive amounts of gold it gets down right murderous, my dm would constantly send my half-orc blade master against those ice skeleton things and i would get no effing treasure no effing treasure dammit i had been using that same +4 speed sword since level 15 because of those damn skeletons

 

[Nyaricus]

Nyaricus: The numbers all go to 100. Look, right across the board, 100, 100, 100 and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most systems go up to 20?
Nyaricus: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's more epic? Is it any more epic?
Nyaricus: Well, it's eighty higher, isn't it? It's not twenty. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at twenty. You're on twenty here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're twentieth level. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nyaricus: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to a hundred.
Nyaricus: A hundred. Exactly. Eighty higher.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make twenty more epic and make twenty be the top number and make that a little more epic?
Nyaricus: (pause) These go to a hundred.

okay, on top of you being a major jackass in your response, no one has yet to post on this thread named Marty DiBergi (so on that, i will assume thats your real name). You needn't be so touchy, nore flame me. I was making a suggestion, and some folks agreed, you didn't. Recap: there was no need to flame - i explained my rational, you flame me for it. Alrighty then . . .