D&D 4E What would you want to see in 4e?

[sinmissing]

And you have to remember each combatants AC. No inherent extra record keeping.

This has not been my experience. I remember 20 years ago, I could look at 10d6 and tell you almost immediately how much damage that was, now any extra factors (especially with D&D) weighs heavily on my DM style.

Not if it's done right.

In my opinion, DR doesn't add anything to this particular rollplaying game.

 

[sinmissing]

You say that as if it was a bad thing. I see it as a plus, as long as there is some way of bypassing all or part of that DR on a lucky roll (like a crit).

It is a bad thing. Warriors are not dipped in armor and coated from head to toe in metal! In a non-location specific damage system, there has to be some way of accounting for a blow getting under a greave, or between some plates. But, your mileage may vary.

 

[Greg K]

It is a bad thing. Warriors are not dipped in armor and coated from head to toe in metal! In a non-location specific damage system, there has to be some way of accounting for a blow getting under a greave, or between some plates. But, your mileage may vary.

Sounds like a critical hit to me

 

[Staffan]

It is a bad thing. Warriors are not dipped in armor and coated from head to toe in metal! In a non-location specific damage system, there has to be some way of accounting for a blow getting under a greave, or between some plates. But, your mileage may vary.

Iron Heroes does that by making DR random. Plate, for example, has DR 1d8.

One thing you could do with a system like that (but they haven't done in Iron Heroes) is to differentiate between armors that have similar average levels of protection but different coverage. For example, in D&D the breastplate and a chain hauberk both give +5 to AC indicating that they're similar in overall protection. If you use random DR, you could give the chain mail DR 1d4+1 and the breastplate 1d6, showing that the breastplate provides better protection to the areas covered by the plate, while the chainmail has more uniform protection.

 

[fuindordm]

After playing a long, long campaign in Fantasy HERO, I lost my love of armor as DR. As a DM, it's important to me to be able to whittle away at the party's resources with minor encounters--if only Boss Monsters are a threat to the party, it breaks the verisimilitude.

Small amounts are OK through class abilities or special items--I wouldn't even say no to a house rule that allows medium armors one point and heavy armors two points. Iron Heroes is OK because even the best armors have a decent chance of providing low DR on any given hit, and because it's so much easier for even mooks to ramp up their damage output in that system.

But when an average character can have 3 or 4 points of DR even at low levels, and more at higher levels, and they are able to ignore a horde of goblins with daggers entirely, I just can't swallow it. Critical hits aren't the answer there for me, they're too unreliable. I don't really want to have to give all of them one level of rogue either.

Ben

 

[tetsujin28]

More tactical options, ala Iron Heroes.

 

[glass]

Oh...please "support" why you believe DR a better mechanic than AC, given that AC has survived for decades. You onviously have a personal preference for DR, but you make no claims regarding why it is a better mechanic than AC.

But the difference is, I am not claiming AC doesn't work (as you say, it has survived for decades): It's just that with an AC system, armour either protects you 100%, or not at all. And that requires a little extra suspension of disbelief that could be better used elsewhere.

Even if Armor as DR was built into the system, it would require more record keeping.

You keep saying this, and yet you have yet to name a single extra record you have to keep! Come on, what are they?

I have played systems where armor=DR and they have all taken more time than a flat attack versus a set difficulty class.

But have they taken more time because of the DR?

Not to mention that weapons such as daggers become fairly useless.

I can think of at least three ways that daggers could be made non-useless in the context of a damage-reducing armour system. I believe I have already mentione two of them in this thread.

If you want real support for my views, please read the excellent article by Sean Reynolds: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/armorasdamagereduction.html

Appeal to authority.The trouble with SKR's (self-confessed) rant is that he bases his entire argument on a false premise:

Given #2: If you have a wide range of DR values for armor, it means that some weapons that don't normally do a lot of damage (such as the dagger) won't be able to hurt high-DR foes unless they crit. For example, if you give full plate DR 8, it means a person with a dagger can't ever hurt someone in full plate (barring Strength and other bonuses to damage), when historically that wasn't true at all ... it was hard, but a skilled person can find the gaps in the armor

Given #2 is most certainly not a given, which shoots a fairly major hole in his argument (and yours ).

He also admits (unlike you) that damage-reducing armour could work; he just believes it would be a lot of work to implement. But we a talking about a hypothetical new edition here: If WotC (or whoever) expect me to buy a new edition, they'd better have put some some work into it!


glass.

 

[glass]

glass, as much as i do agree with the logical construction of your refuting arguments, i must also point out that you use the same flaws which you point out. for example:is an Argument from Authority.

I thought you had me there for a second, but then I realised the reason I was so offhand was that I had already addressed the point:

• Armour that reduces damage, but a system thought out and designed from scratch to be that way, rather than the conversion from AC to DR in UA. Probably with variable DR, a la Alternity or Iron Heroes.
• DoS of attack roll added to base damage, obviating the need for damage to be rolled separately and freeing up a die roll for the armour reduction.

EDIT: You said 'example'. If you have spotted any other logical fallacies please let me know. I am always looking to improve my debating skills.


glass.

 

[Belen]

He also admits (unlike you) that damage-reducing armour could work; he just believes it would be a lot of work to implement. But we a talking about a hypothetical new edition here: If WotC (or whoever) expect me to buy a new edition, they'd better have put some some work into it!.

So you refuse to support your view that DR is better than AC. You miss the entire point of SKR's commentary when he explains how armor as DR would fundamentally alter the way D&D is played and how it works.

But have they taken more time because of the DR?

Yes.

 

[Belen]

Iron Heroes does that by making DR random. Plate, for example, has DR 1d8.

Yes, but this is a complex mechanic. It requires yet another roll in the game and adds needless complexity to combat.