D&D 5E What XP to award for defeating DMPCs?

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A "deadly" encounter is not deadly in 5e. It is potentially deadly as part of a series of encounters over the course of an adventuring day. An actual 50/50 either way is much tougher than that.

Absolutely! I've measured about a 1:12 chance of death per character in a deadly encounter, versus about 1:120 from medium-hard. In my opinion only two categories are really needed - lethal (deadly+), and attritional (hard).

As a side note, PC-rules-built are lousy foes in 5e. Those built with monster rules have different ratio of damage/nova to survivability. Fights with PCs will be very swingy and short - the dice will dictate more than in a normal fight.

Yes, lethal, unpredictable combat. That's exactly what I want. Choose your fights wisely!

Build your foes using monster rules, with a few iconic abilities to feel liek the class. This will give you satisfying fights and will give you a CR for them so you know how much experience to award.

I have done this in the past. It's very time consuming to do, and often no better. That said, I would hugely value a 'Monster Manual' that gave us only foes like the mage, scout, champion etc. Along the lines you suggest. I'm optimistic about the new Mordenkainen's.

 

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I also wouldn't use class levels on NPCs. If I wanted to do something that conferred the idea to the players that so-and-so is a "ranger," for example, then I'd probably just take like an Archer monster stat block and tack on a couple of key spells or features that would make people go "aha, a ranger." Then just use that monster's regular XP value or CR + 1 XP value.

Well, since more than one person has suggested this. I think I will take another look at it. Thank you (both, @Blue)!

 

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If a PC beheads a DMPC, they should be able to absorb their quickening and take over as DM.

It's really the best way

But seriously though... I think most players might be thrown off by DMs using PC classes as enemies more often than not. The massive variety of options mean you can't really predict abilities as much as using a stock monster. As for how much XP to award... I would say follow the DMG chart for challenge as best you can as a basis. If they trounce your PCs regularly, perhaps up the award over time?

The campaign theme is colonisation, and I really want the PCs to develop empathy for the 'monsters' they're usually destroying, by being faced with foes that they can strongly relate to - that have class-level-equivalence. It's set in 557 NR (1589 DR). An archipelago inhabited by orc (PCs) face been overwhelmed by Waterdhavian colonists. So the colonists need to feel like people i.e. PCs.

It might work to make monster stat blocks for them. I do find a lot of the currently available ones lacking.

 

[Blue]

I have done this in the past. It's very time consuming to do, and often no better. That said, I would hugely value a 'Monster Manual' that gave us only foes like the mage, scout, champion etc. Along the lines you suggest. I'm optimistic about the new Mordenkainen's.

It's making up numbers in the range for the CR you want following the charts. It is a small fraction of the time to make up monster stats then to build a PC.

 

[Charlaquin]

For a nice easy to follow guideline for eyeballing CR that more closely matches the monster manual than the guidelines in the DMG do, check out blogofholding’s Monster Manual on a Business Card. Could be helpful whether you decide to go with PC levels or custom monster stat blocks.

 

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For a nice easy to follow guideline for eyeballing CR that more closely matches the monster manual than the guidelines in the DMG do, check out blogofholding’s Monster Manual on a Business Card. Could be helpful whether you decide to go with PC levels or custom monster stat blocks.

I forgot about blogofholding's guide. Good call. That might make calculating CRs for CCEQs practical.

 

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It's making up numbers in the range for the CR you want following the charts. It is a small fraction of the time to make up monster stats then to build a PC.

Not using Fantasy Grounds

 

[Charlaquin]

I forgot about blogofholding's guide. Good call. That might make calculating CRs for CCEQs practical.

At one point I started working on an adaptation of it that was less compact but more comprehensive - showing the actual number ranges instead of the formulae to find them. Might be worth finishing and posting.

 

[clearstream]

For a nice easy to follow guideline for eyeballing CR that more closely matches the monster manual than the guidelines in the DMG do, check out blogofholding’s Monster Manual on a Business Card. Could be helpful whether you decide to go with PC levels or custom monster stat blocks.

Working through some cases seemed illuminating. My assessment is

1. Using the blog 'business card', evaluating a CCEQ is less onerous than feared, but not cost free. About 10 minutes per CCEQ.
2. The business card produces XP values high enough that 'XP bounty-hunting' is a concern
3. I think the business card overstates the threat of a CCEQ, for example I don't think an L5 fighter will be a deadly encounter for an 8th level party (unless the fighter were mini-maxed, which isn't my intent)
4. On the other hand, CR = 1/4 x Level seems to understate the threat, for example I don't think a level 5 EK will be a total pushover for a 5th level party... it'll be medium or hard
5. For the effort involved, the method in my OP falls in a reasonable middle-ground

Below are some cases, using the business card. They're not extensive enough to settle the question! Are they fair enough to justify the method in the OP is worth being the starting method for the campaign, or are there obvious holes?

L1 Cleric (Tempest) CR 2*
Defensive CR = 6 for AC, 2 for Save, 1/4 for HP = 3
Offensive CR = 1/4 for Attack, Damage and DC = 1/4

L1 Ranger = CR 1/2
Defensive/Offensive all 1/2

L1 Rogue = CR 2*
Defensive CR = 1/4 for AC, 4 for Save, 1/4 for HP = 2
Offensive CR = 2 for Attack, 1/2 for Damage = 1

CR 2 = 450 XP = 'Deadly' encounter for 3rd level party
Rule proposed in OP would have suggested = 100 XP = CR 1/2
CR = 1/4 x Level = would have suggested = CR 1/4 = 50 XP = 'Medium' encounter for level

L5 Fighter (EK) = 6*
Defensive CR = 15 for AC, 6 for Save, 2 for HP = 8
Offensive CR = 4 for Attack, 2 for Damage = 3

CR 6 = 2300 XP = 'Deadly' encounter for an 8th level party
Rule proposed in OP would have suggested = 1400 XP = CR 4-5
CR = 1/4 x Level = would have suggested = CR 1 = 200 XP = 'Easy' encounter for level

*Based on averaging guidelines in DMG. Non-mini-maxed.

 

[Charlaquin]

Hmm… I’m not sure the MM business card was designed for averaging offensive and defensive CR separately. The formulae were meant to encompass all the stats of MM monsters within the same CR, which is why there’s such a wide range on HP and damage within each CR. So I’m actually not sure it’ll serve your purpose here well. Though this does definitely illuminate how much greater disparity between their offensive and defensive stats PCs tend to have than NPCs/monsters.