D&D 5E What XP to award for defeating DMPCs?

[clearstream]

Hmm… I’m not sure the MM business card was designed for averaging offensive and defensive CR separately. The formulae were meant to encompass all the stats of MM monsters within the same CR, which is why there’s such a wide range on HP and damage within each CR. So I’m actually not sure it’ll serve your purpose here well. Though this does definitely illuminate how much greater disparity between their offensive and defensive stats PCs tend to have than NPCs/monsters.

It sure does. These are the values using the maximum suggested flexibility, e.g. +/-3 for AC.

 

[Charlaquin]

It sure does. These are the values using the maximum suggested flexibility, e.g. +/-3 for AC.

AC is easy enough to adjust by giving the NPC different armor. For example, it looks to me like your tempest cleric is getting most of its defensive CR from its AC, which I assume is chain mail. If you give it a chain shirt instead, that should drop its AC down to 15 at most, which is within the tolerance of the 1/4 you’ve pegged its offensive CR at. Although, I’m not sure how you’re figuring that. Tempest Cleric always has Thunderwave prepared, which does an average damage of 9, x2 since it’s AoE = 18, x2 since you have two 1st level spell slots = 36. +5 for average mace damage, /3 = 13.66 average damage per round over 3 rounds. That’s CR 1/2 at lowest. I’m also not sure how you’re getting CR2 for the save bonus. Saves can be +2 or -2 from the listed number, so assuming 14 or 15 Wisdom, your best save should be +4, which is within the tolerance for CR 1/4.

I haven’t analyzed your other examples, but it looks like your Tempest Cleric is very close to a comfortable CR 1/4 under the business card guidelines, with average DPR being the only outlier. With the new approach to spellcasting NPCs previewed from Mordenkainen’s I think you could easily lower that damage by the 4 points you need to make it fit. But I suppose that would go against the goal of making them play just like PCs.

 

[clearstream]

AC is easy enough to adjust by giving the NPC different armor. For example, it looks to me like your tempest cleric is getting most of its defensive CR from its AC, which I assume is chain mail. If you give it a chain shirt instead, that should drop its AC down to 15 at most, which is within the tolerance of the 1/4 you’ve pegged its offensive CR at. Although, I’m not sure how you’re figuring that. Tempest Cleric always has Thunderwave prepared, which does an average damage of 9, x2 since it’s AoE = 18, x2 since you have two 1st level spell slots = 36. +5 for average mace damage, /3 = 13.66 average damage per round over 3 rounds. That’s CR 1/2 at lowest. I’m also not sure how you’re getting CR2 for the save bonus. Saves can be +2 or -2 from the listed number, so assuming 14 or 15 Wisdom, your best save should be +4, which is within the tolerance for CR 1/4.

I haven’t analyzed your other examples, but it looks like your Tempest Cleric is very close to a comfortable CR 1/4 under the business card guidelines, with average DPR being the only outlier. With the new approach to spellcasting NPCs previewed from Mordenkainen’s I think you could easily lower that damage by the 4 points you need to make it fit. But I suppose that would go against the goal of making them play just like PCs.

Unfortunately, yes. The goal is to have foes that are like other PCs.

As you realised, the cleric has chainmail because it has the Tempest bonus proficiency and the 1st-level equipment option. I'll take another look at the offensive. PCs have a lot of abilities not covered by the table: it's unclear how to value them.

 

[Charlaquin]

Unfortunately, yes. The goal is to have foes that are like other PCs.

As you realised, the cleric has chainmail because it has the Tempest bonus proficiency and the 1st-level equipment option. I'll take another look at the offensive. PCs have a lot of abilities not covered by the table: it's unclear how to value them.

Generally unless abilities increase effective damage per round or effective HP, they have no statistically significant correlation to CR.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Working through some cases seemed illuminating. My assessment is

1. Using the blog 'business card', evaluating a CCEQ is less onerous than feared, but not cost free. About 10 minutes per CCEQ.
2. The business card produces XP values high enough that 'XP bounty-hunting' is a concern
3. I think the business card overstates the threat of a CCEQ, for example I don't think an L5 fighter will be a deadly encounter for an 8th level party (unless the fighter were mini-maxed, which isn't my intent)
4. On the other hand, CR = 1/4 x Level seems to understate the threat, for example I don't think a level 5 EK will be a total pushover for a 5th level party... it'll be medium or hard
5. For the effort involved, the method in my OP falls in a reasonable middle-ground

Below are some cases, using the business card. They're not extensive enough to settle the question! Are they fair enough to justify the method in the OP is worth being the starting method for the campaign, or are there obvious holes?

L1 Cleric (Tempest) CR 2*
Defensive CR = 6 for AC, 2 for Save, 1/4 for HP = 3
Offensive CR = 1/4 for Attack, Damage and DC = 1/4

L1 Ranger = CR 1/2
Defensive/Offensive all 1/2

L1 Rogue = CR 2*
Defensive CR = 1/4 for AC, 4 for Save, 1/4 for HP = 2
Offensive CR = 2 for Attack, 1/2 for Damage = 1

CR 2 = 450 XP = 'Deadly' encounter for 3rd level party
Rule proposed in OP would have suggested = 100 XP = CR 1/2
CR = 1/4 x Level = would have suggested = CR 1/4 = 50 XP = 'Medium' encounter for level

L5 Fighter (EK) = 6*
Defensive CR = 15 for AC, 6 for Save, 2 for HP = 8
Offensive CR = 4 for Attack, 2 for Damage = 3

CR 6 = 2300 XP = 'Deadly' encounter for an 8th level party
Rule proposed in OP would have suggested = 1400 XP = CR 4-5
CR = 1/4 x Level = would have suggested = CR 1 = 200 XP = 'Easy' encounter for level

*Based on averaging guidelines in DMG. Non-mini-maxed.

Are you sure you're averaging right? The only numbers that you average together are the final defensive CR with the final offensive CR. The system for determining each of those CRs starts with one number and increases or decreases it based on other considerations.

 

[Charlaquin]

Are you sure you're averaging right? The only numbers that you average together are the final defensive CR with the final offensive CR. The system for determining each of those CRs starts with one number and increases or decreases it based on other considerations.

The MM on a business card shouldn’t even require averaging between offensive and defensive CR. The rules were designed to account for every monster in the MM under each CR, both offensively and defensively (there are a handful of outliers they miss, but it would be very difficult to account for them without making the rules too broad to be useful). The problem is, PC stats are just too different from monster stats for CR to work to model them.