Whatever happened to social combat?

[Jack99]

No, they didn't fool me, they just ed up and didn't manage to do what they set out to do. It is clearly not a simpler game.

Just because you don't like and don't understand 4e, doesn't make it more complicated for the rest of us.

You've apparently missed the threads showing how you're pretty much screwed if you make your character wrong. I'm not talking about min/maxing to cascade of blades to solo Orcus, but about not being able to handle level appropriate challenges. Hitting on an 11+ vs. hitting on a 13+ means you're doing about 25% more damage/shifts/healing/whatever. Same character, but 4 point difference in a prime attribute, dramatically different effect.

Okay. Please. Let me get this right. You are complaining that a 20 str fighter is better than a 16 str fighter?

Yeah. HUGE Problem. Very broken. Can't believe I have missed that for all those years. Just to make sure I got it right. A fighter becomes better when his strength goes up???? AH I see it now. That's why the DM kept throwing those silly belts at us... What were their name.. Ah yes, Belt of Storm Giant Strength....

 

[GnomeWorks]

Yeah. HUGE Problem. Very broken. Can't believe I have missed that for all those years. Just to make sure I got it right. A fighter becomes better when his strength goes up???? AH I see it now. That's why the DM kept throwing those silly belts at us... What were their name.. Ah yes, Belt of Storm Giant Strength....

It's a question of what the assumed "minimum" value for the stats are, and how tightly the mechanics of the system are tied to that minimum value.

If the mechanics of the system assume that your fighter will have a 20 Strength, and the mechanics of the system are such that the game is tuned for a fighter with a 20 Strength, then yes, you are incredibly screwed if you have anything less than that. If the system has more give, then you can function with less, but the stat itself has less meaning.

I can't say how tightly the "minimum" stat value and game mechanics are tied in 4e, but I can imagine that - with their emphasis on the math - that the "minimum" value is more important in this edition than past ones.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Keep on topic please!



I remember last Autumn I was intrigued by the idea of a social combat system, and thinking how all classes might be good in combat and good in social combat, just in different ways.

Clearly the to and fro of social combat was ditched for 'skill challenges' which are just one-sided complex ways of handling a skill check.

I suppose WotC 'gagging order' on those under NDA would prevent anyone who had played with social combat rules at an earlier stage from talking about them

 

[GnomeWorks]

I remember last Autumn I was intrigued by the idea of a social combat system, and thinking how all classes might be good in combat and good in social combat, just in different ways.

Making it decent would have been rather difficult, though. While I don't like it, I can understand their decision to cut it back and go for the simpler, though far less fulfilling, solution.

 

[Ydars]

I don't see why social combat would have been so difficult; Exalted has a great social combat system that really works well.

The problem is more likely that once you have social combat, you have to have mechanics for things that in D&D have always been nebulous; e.g. things your character cares about (called intimacies in Exalted). I think this would have taken the game even further from what most people think of as core D&D.

 

[Tuft]

I don't see why social combat would have been so difficult; Exalted has a great social combat system that really works well.

Sounds intriguing. Anybody who can do a short summary?

 

[Ydars]

OK; here is my attempt.

Exalted is actually alot like 4E; all the characters are massively powerful, even at first level. The good thing about Exalted is that this is part of a nice backstory. In Exalted, everyone is a fusion between an ordinary person and the reincarnated essence of a once-godling.

This affects the social combat system because the godling part of the character has a rating, from one to five, in each of the four virtues; valor, temperance, compassion, and conviction. If you have a rating above 3 in a virtue, your character can only ignore certain situations by spending willpower and this is a finite resource. For example, if your character has 5 in valor, if he is openly challenged to single combat by an enemy or called a comward, you would have to spend willpower to resist this call to battle, even if it would be bad news for you or your group. Hence, one form of social manipulation is to use a person's virtues against them.

Characters also have intimacies; ideas, organisations or goals that your character is passionate about.

Social combat relies upon attacking and weakening intimacies or creating new ones. If someone tries to attack your intimacies, they use social atrributes (presence for one to one, performance for groups and either manipulation or charisma) to overcome your mental defences. You can again use willpower to avoid this for a time, but if someone can get at you constantly, they can wear down your defences and then create a new intimacy. Once this is done, you have to roleplay it and if you don't the GM can make you by requiring you to spend willpower points avoid serving your intimacies.

Since willpower is very finite and only comes back slowly, you have to be very careful who you talk to.

There are also magical effects that only Exalted characters can use that create irresistable social attacks, or can block any social attack. Social attacks can even be made through writing.

So basically, social combat is hard-wired right into Exalted at about the same level as normal combat.

 

[Tuft]

OK; here is my attempt.

Exalted is actually alot like 4E; all the characters are massively powerful, even at first level. The good thing about Exalted is that this is part of a nice backstory. In Exalted, everyone is a fusion between an ordinary person and the reincarnated essence of a once-godling.

This affects the social combat system because the godling part of the character has a rating, from one to five, in each of the four virtues; valor, temperance, compassion, and conviction. If you have a rating above 3 in a virtue, your character can only ignore certain situations by spending willpower and this is a finite resource. For example, if your character has 5 in valor, if he is openly challenged to single combat by an enemy or called a comward, you would have to spend willpower to resist this call to battle, even if it would be bad news for you or your group. Hence, one form of social manipulation is to use a person's virtues against them.

Characters also have intimacies; ideas, organisations or goals that your character is passionate about.

Social combat relies upon attacking and weakening intimacies or creating new ones. If someone tries to attack your intimacies, they use social atrributes (presence for one to one, performance for groups and either manipulation or charisma) to overcome your mental defences. You can again use willpower to avoid this for a time, but if someone can get at you constantly, they can wear down your defences and then create a new intimacy. Once this is done, you have to roleplay it and if you don't the GM can make you by requiring you to spend willpower points avoid serving your intimacies.

Since willpower is very finite and only comes back slowly, you have to be very careful who you talk to.

There are also magical effects that only Exalted characters can use that create irresistable social attacks, or can block any social attack. Social attacks can even be made through writing.

So basically, social combat is hard-wired right into Exalted at about the same level as normal combat.

How does the roll- versus role-playing balance feel? I.e, how much talk and how much dice?

One thing made me a bit wary: "you have to be very careful who you talk to." Any risk of characters going hermit and avoiding social roleplay?

 

[Ydars]

Tuft; because of stunts (basically, as a player, you get bonuses to attempt anything in Exalted if you make a really brilliant description of your actions; including social combat) the rollplaying never really eclipses the roleplaying (at least not in the games I have played).

Also, Exalted characters are not really in danger of being socially coerced by mundane NPCs; it is minor gods and other PCs who present the most danger. It basically just introduces another level of "conflict" into the game that makes it fun.

I think the whole thing about Exalted is that telling the story is not so much the DM's power; players can influence the story much more because of stunts. The downside is that other players can also influence your character as well. I haven't seen it abused but I have seen it used to prevent a disruptive character from playing his character badly.

I actually feel that the skill challenge dynamic in 4E is heavily influenced by Exalted. The whole "say Yes" part where players are allowed to invent minor details of the scene in a skill challenge is very Exalted in flavour.