Pathfinder 1E What's broken or needs vast system knowledge?

Empirate

First Post
That brings up the general point: GMs, don't allow unrestricted 'dipping' of classes! Multiclassing in general should only be done with GM approval and needs to make sense in-world. If you allow the players to try any abusive combo they can think of, it's much more likely they will.

Not good advice in my opinion. Whyever should dipping be disallowed? PF has the favored class mechanic, which encourages you to stay in one class; and very few class features are actually so front-loaded as to be worth leaving your specialty class for. So the mechanical side of things actually discourages dipping anyway. That said, why should a Fighter not pursue his darker moods for a while and learn to channel his emotional side into battle rage (dipping Barbarian), or learn to sneak around and hit where it really hurts (Rogue dip), or even get some magical tutoring solely so he can operate wands and scrolls that make him better at fighting (Wizard dip)? There's neither a balance reason, nor is there any limitation in what makes sense.

I had a 3.5 PC in my group who, at level 7, literally had only first levels. In seven classes. His backstory for how this came to be was a beauty. It wasn't contrived, it was original, it was fun, and the character felt entirely real.
OTOH, I've seen lots of single-classed Fighters or Sorcerers or Clerics that were so bland and lacking in personality it hurt.

Abusive combos, if you're afraid of those, can be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis. But in my book, a DM has a responsibility to allow as much as possible, so the players are not constrained in their fun. While the players have a responsibility not to disrupt the game, neither through 'fluff' nor 'crunch' choices - which is in their own best interest anyway!
 
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pauljathome

First Post
In general, Pathfinder is significantly more balanced than 3.5 and rewards system mastery less. Many (not all) of the most egregious problems in 3.5 have been fixed.

Paizo has consciously tried to avoid power creep.

All of that said, power creep most certainly HAS occurred. If you want to avoid a great many issues (not all, but a great many) one very viable approach would be to limit players to the Core rulebook and Advanced Players Guide. While MOST class archetypes are fine (many are underpowered) some of them are definitely overpowered. Unfortunately, you pretty much have to look at them on a case by case basis.

The most powerful characters from about L6 or so onwards are still primary spellcasters and, possibly, some of the Summoner variants (especially the Master Summoner). But the difference in power between martial and caster classes has been reduced to the point where a well built fighter can be far more powerful than a poorly built spellcaster.

Things are mostly balanced enough that it is mostly player skill at the table that is the most important factor in determining power. A well played rogue can outshine a poorly played wizard.

If you have players consciously trying to mini-max the system you're going to have problems unless you keep a very firm handle on things. Far too many combinations.
 

DragonLancer

Adventurer
So, two questions:

1) What have you personally found to be most broken in Pathfinder?

2) What have you personally found requires the most system knowledge to take advantage of in Pathfinder?

1. Nothing really comes to mind as broken. However, I am finding that pretty much everything outside the core rules has a power creep which can make certain balance issues awkward.

2. Nothing. Pathfinder is no harder to break than D&D 3.X was.
 

GhostBear

Explorer
Not good advice in my opinion. Whyever should dipping be disallowed? [...] Abusive combos, if you're afraid of those, can be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis.
While you make a good point that there can be good in-game reasons for doing so, in my experience "class dipping" reeks of power gaming and that is the reason people do it. It is a rare person that takes 1 level of seven classes and doesn't do it to game the system.

Additionally, I find it to really break immersion the way it is commonly handled. Getting started in a new profession is something that, in most cases, should take a good long while of specialized training. You don't suddenly wake up one day knowing how to pick a lock, mix complicated chemicals, or cast Magic Missile. It's just silly. Where did this complex mastery come from?

However, in a game that has considerable amounts of down time between adventures or whatnot, it's very plausible for someone to learn a little of this, a little of that, and become a jack of all trades. In that kind of a scenario, I see no reason to forbid it (aside from aforementioned munchkinisms).

I can also see a viable explanation being the party teaching each other. This can be entertaining, especially when it comes to magic. Those early attempts at warping reality and mastering the arcane must have some amusing end results from time to time!

It really comes down to context and how abusive your players are.
 

Dandu

First Post
While you make a good point that there can be good in-game reasons for doing so, in my experience "class dipping" reeks of power gaming and that is the reason people do it.
You know what else reeks of power gaming? Sorcerer 20, Wizard 20, Cleric 20, and Druid 20.

It is a rare person that takes 1 level of seven classes and doesn't do it to game the system.
I'm sorry, but going Ranger1/Barbarian1/Fighter1/Rogue1/Bard1/Cleric1/Druid1 is a great way to make yourself useless.

Maybe you could submit an actual example of dipping being used to munchkin the system and make a horrendously powerful character? Surely if it is such a problem, you can point out an actual occurrence?
 

Dozen

First Post
Maybe you could submit an actual example of dipping being used to munchkin the system and make a horrendously powerful character? Surely if it is such a problem, you can point out an actual occurrence?

Don't misunderstand, I completely agree with you, but since you lobbed it right over the plate...

The Word. Though we all know no DM would ever let it happen, so technically it's as good as nonexistent.

To support your argument, anybody is free to go to any board and find out Full Casters are the real blockbusters of PF, not some kind of mind-boggling Multiclass combination.
 
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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
It's an entirely other matter if you allow 3rd party material. The classes from other publishers are mixture of the best of ideas and impressive creativity with such a baffling level of complete, utter jacksh*t it would Overwhelm a Demigod if he cast Detect Chaos on it. Like the Artificer which can unbalance a campaign more than a 3.5 one and refers to rounding up as "natural" - whereas that's the first instance you need to round upwards I've ever seen - , or the Warlock, a thinly disguised, flavorless Sorcerer ripoff with limitations the D&D version couldn't help but laugh at. They are not broken, per se, but not thought through, so watch out, just in case.

Certainly there are exceptions, like the Artificer - not all 3PP is perfect, but IME, publishers like Super Genius Games and Rite Publishing tend to create material that is far more balanced than the rules created by Paizo. Of course you have to also consider that many 3PP's are also freelancers for Paizo and are responsible for some of what is RAW in the first place.

If a 3PP created the Gunslinger or Magus classes, the pitch forks would be raised against them.

The thought comparison between d20 glut and Pathfinder 3PPs are miles apart. You shouldn't by default consider 3PP when considering what is over the top rules-wise. I think it's the other way around regarding 3PP vs. Paizo RAW.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
In general, Pathfinder is significantly more balanced than 3.5 and rewards system mastery less. Many (not all) of the most egregious problems in 3.5 have been fixed.

... Have those guys ever played optimized 3rd Edition D&D? PF is a tad tamer version of 3.5, really - unquestionably harder than 4th Ed., but in all seriousness, if you have half an idea about 3.5., you'd have to actually try your best to create a character who slows the party down in Pathfinder

That's how I thought it was supposed to be, fixing up some of the 3.5 ones (I apparently missed what the system mastery problems were there when we played 3.5 too...). I'll check back with the friend from my non-PF gaming group who made the comment and see if he agrees its better than 3.5 (or if he hasn't checked), and what he thinks the big offenders that are left.

Thought those above to quotes were a nice contrast to...

2. Nothing. Pathfinder is no harder to break than D&D 3.X was.

----

The most powerful characters from about L6 or so onwards are still primary spellcasters and, possibly, some of the Summoner variants (especially the Master Summoner). But the difference in power between martial and caster classes has been reduced to the point where a well built fighter can be far more powerful than a poorly built spellcaster.

Full progression spellcasters are the most powerful classes in Pathfinder just like they have been for every version of AD&D (past extremely low levels in earlier ones).

You know what else reeks of power gaming? Sorcerer 20, Wizard 20, Cleric 20, and Druid 20.

Are the spell-users and non-casters close enough that balancing it could just be a matter of slowing down the number of spells they acquire and maybe their caster level, or is it still that the effects of some of the high level ones are just game breaking still? (Would it fix the problem to make the spacing between new spell levels slow down and just ditch the 9th and maybe 8th levels? Would that strip the casters of too much fun stuff?)

It looks on the surface like the problem of one-and-done for the low level casters have been fixed by PF. Does that seem to hold in your actual games too?
 
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Dandu

First Post
Are the spell-users and non-casters close enough that balancing it could just be a matter of slowing down the number of spells they acquire and maybe their caster level, or is it still that the effects of some of the high level ones are just game breaking still?
That is a matter of some contention. I personally think that the number of spells and caster level are fine, but some of the actual spells are poorly written.
 

Are the spell-users and non-casters close enough that balancing it could just be a matter of slowing down the number of spells they acquire and maybe their caster level, or is it still that the effects of some of the high level ones are just game breaking still? (Would it fix the problem to make the spacing between new spell levels slow down and just ditch the 9th and maybe 8th levels? Would that strip the casters of too much fun stuff?)

It looks on the surface like the problem of one-and-done for the low level casters have been fixed by PF. Does that seem to hold in your actual games too?

I'll put it this way. Because of the nerfs (and they're needed nerfs) to polymorph in general and wild shape in particular, a druid who turns into a bear or tiger cannot match the output of a barbarian/alchemist with elemental rage, feral mutagen, and a bunch of other non-core stuff.

However, the benefits of having a spellcaster are still considerable. I believe the power of the non-casting classes has been amped to the point that it takes a few more levels for spellcasters to beat noncasters. But I think noncasters would still have the advantage, as they can put the noncasters into an "out of context" situation.

For instance, one encounter we did in Kingmaker involved a lich-like creature (not the final boss, for those who are familiar with this adventure) whose level was on par with the PCs. He was an 8th-level wizard, but his template pushed him to CR 10. Unlike a lich, he didn't have DR or (presumably) a paralyzing grip.

His position, standing on a ledge about 30 feet up, was almost as good as flying, and he stood back and hit us with a Fireball right at the beginning as we got off a boat. I don't know why it hurt so much... metamagic? luck of the dice? ... but we were worried right from the beginning. After that, there was a struggle to actually get to the wizard. The magus PC used Spider Climb and my druid turned into a Huge bear (15 feet tall with 15 feet reach) and could reach the wizard at a ledge on the top of the cavern. So, a balanced encounter? Probably. It seemed like it was playtested. It was certainly fun for those of us who could contribute.

But that wizard could have aced us, if only he's used Greater Invisibility and prepped more than one direct damage spell. My druid could have located and killed him, but that's because wildshape gives abilities like Scent which aren't available to noncasters. A noncaster, say a barbarian with maxed Perception, couldn't locate him due to the huge benefits to Stealth granted from being invisible, and then would have to use a much weaker attack than the usual Power Attack with greatsword that never misses :)

Turning invisible is an out of context problem. Unless you've got Invisibility Purge, the whole party cannot take on the wizard, and even then, the purge has a limited AoE. (Or you could use See Invisibility, in which case only one PC can contribute. There are items that let you see invisible creatures, but they're too expensive for 8th-level PCs who can reasonably take on opponents who can cast 4th-level spells.)

Flying is a quasi out-of-context issue. It would hit my group more than most since we're mostly "melee monsters". Even the magus.

In another case, we went through a much-less thought out encounter a bit later in Kingmaker. It was us versus a whole lot of identical barbarians. (I couldn't pick out a leader, a shaman, or what have you.)

We had a new player and he plays a witch. He started the battle with Sleet Storm. I had no idea how good that was, it's only after playing 4e that I could see the benefits of such a spell. It's an AoE effect, a very large one, that blinds everyone stuck in it, no save. Well, not just blind, they also get total concealment, so the rest of the party needs direct damage, which we didn't have (the magus hadn't learned Fireball yet, and the druid hadn't prepped Flame Strike). In addition, the victims of the spell cannot move unless they make an Acrobatics check DC 10, which is actually not so easy if you didn't put ranks into it. (It's Acrobatics rather than Strength because you're struggling against icy ground rather than wind.) The barbarians probably had Acrobatics scores of +2 (Dex and no training, I figure), so they could make the checks only about 40% of the time. They came out piecemeal...

Right into the Spike Stones (Perception DC 29, 25 + spell level, no that's not balanced for an 8th-level encounter) that my druid had cast, which did damage and slowed them down more.

And then the witch started dropping Web and the magus and my druid started using fire and Call Lightning attacks on the trapped barbarians, one at a time... Due to dumb luck, my druid took a lot of damage from only two thrown spear attacks (but one was a confirmed crit with a x3 weapon). Other than that, we completely owned the encounter. I should point out the magus isn't a "full caster" and my druid took a high Strength instead of Wisdom score since he's a wild shape specialist, so the only difference was having one almost-full caster. Honestly, if we had a wizard, we'd be kicking even more butt due to the wider array of attack and utility spells available.

As Dandu said, some of those spells are poorly written, often with no change from 3.x. There's some assumptions that need fixing (the Perception DC of Spike Stones is simply too high) and then there's some spells that are pathetic (Entangle, I'm looking at you; yes, the AoE is huge, but the effect is low and easily escapable even without a save).
 

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