What's going to happen to druids?

[Li Shenron]

It's the only class I haven't heard about yet, neither for good or bad...

 

[Jer]

It's the only class I haven't heard about yet, neither for good or bad...

Nobody's mentioned druids officially yet that I've seen, and so any discussion about them is going to be almost pure speculation. But I was actually thinking about this during a long drive this weekend, and I had a few thoughts.

The first is that the "role" that druids fit in 3e is a bit mushy and it depends almost entirely on the playstyle of the druid's player and the level of the druid character. I've seen druids fill the "Controller role" in many games I've played - tying down the opposition with Entangle spells, using Flaming Sphere to box in enemies and keep them from moving around, and using their Summon abilities in a similar manner.

But I've also seen druids that fill more of a "Defender role" once they hit the level where they can shapeshift into a suitably nasty animal and go on the offensive - then they're wading into combat and standing next to the fighter dishing out and taking damage themselves. So if "role" is going to be important in the new system, the druid's role has to be examined - are they a Controller, a Defender, or are they some kind of mix of Controller and Defender (if mixed roles are going to be "allowed" in the design)? I think this is going to come down to whether the niche that druids are envisioned as filling is more of the "nature priest" niche or the "shapeshifting defender of nature" niche, and I'm not sure which way I'd even like to see them take the class.

Another thought is that it was confirmed that we're only getting 8 classes initially, and that we know that four of them are the base classes of Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue (whatever they decide to call them in the end). There's also been a confirmation of a Warlord class, they've talked about Paladins and Rangers, and there's been discussion of Sorcerers and Warlocks. We may not get a Druid class in the initial PHB at all, which would be quite a switch for "AD&D" (though not for D&D, really).

Part of my thinking on the possibility of not getting a Druid class stems from the "power source" idea that the new core rules are also being centered around. The first PHB is supposed to be around "martial, arcane and divine" classes. The breakdown on "known" classes would be:

Martial: Fighter, Rogue, Warlord [?]
Arcane: Wizard
Divine: Cleric, Ranger, Paladin

with the assumption that the Warlord would be a "martial" class. If these classes are all there, then there's a tendency to want to stick another "arcane" class in there rather than another "divine" class - to give some more coverage to the different "power sources" available. The Druid may be held out for a later update given the more limited class coverage being discussed.

(I for one hope not - I'd rather they drop the Paladin for a later supplement than the Druid. But I don't think they're going to base their decisions on things I might want...)

 

[Li Shenron]

Another thought is that it was confirmed that we're only getting 8 classes initially, and that we know that four of them are the base classes of Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue (whatever they decide to call them in the end). There's also been a confirmation of a Warlord class, they've talked about Paladins and Rangers, and there's been discussion of Sorcerers and Warlocks. We may not get a Druid class in the initial PHB at all, which would be quite a switch for "AD&D" (though not for D&D, really).

There is a quote somewhere, maybe in ENW main page, that says a breakdown based on roles rather than power sources:

"Defender": Fighter & Paladin
"Striker": Rogue & Ranger
"Leader": Cleric & Warlord
"Controller": Wizard & ?

Part of my thinking on the possibility of not getting a Druid class stems from the "power source" idea that the new core rules are also being centered around. The first PHB is supposed to be around "martial, arcane and divine" classes.

Well thinking about it seriously, and maybe trying not to stick to what we're used to... The Druid class is a fantastic character archetype, one of the coolest in my opinion! But why is it stuck to the "divine" group as the cleric? In every setting we play, there is always a question at some point: what is the difference between a Cleric of a "god of nature" and a Druid?

But then if the druid is inspired from real-life, it's not really compatible with a cleric, it's quite the opposite, maybe someone who denies the superiority of gods over the universe. More anti-divine than divine really... Closer to a sorcerer than a priest. With that approach, a druid class would be "powered" by a different source of power than arcane or divine.

And yet I have the feeling that instead they are looking forward to "fold the druid" into the cleric class, which is exactly the opposite.

 

[TwoSix]

There is a quote somewhere, maybe in ENW main page, that says a breakdown based on roles rather than power sources:

"Defender": Fighter & Paladin
"Striker": Rogue & Ranger
"Leader": Cleric & Warlord
"Controller": Wizard & ?



Well thinking about it seriously, and maybe trying not to stick to what we're used to... The Druid class is a fantastic character archetype, one of the coolest in my opinion! But why is it stuck to the "divine" group as the cleric? In every setting we play, there is always a question at some point: what is the difference between a Cleric of a "god of nature" and a Druid?

But then if the druid is inspired from real-life, it's not really compatible with a cleric, it's quite the opposite, maybe someone who denies the superiority of gods over the universe. More anti-divine than divine really... Closer to a sorcerer than a priest. With that approach, a druid class would be "powered" by a different source of power than arcane or divine.

And yet I have the feeling that instead they are looking forward to "fold the druid" into the cleric class, which is exactly the opposite.

I wouldn't be surprised to see "nature" as one of the power sources in PHBII, along with psionics and something else. (Technology, maybe, as PHBII will precede Eberron 4e.)

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

(snip)
But then if the druid is inspired from real-life, it's not really compatible with a cleric, it's quite the opposite, maybe someone who denies the superiority of gods over the universe. More anti-divine than divine really... Closer to a sorcerer than a priest. With that approach, a druid class would be "powered" by a different source of power than arcane or divine.
(snip)

Actually, real-life druids were very much priests... of Belenus, Dea Matrona, and a host of other Gaulish divinities whose worship was subsumed into the great Roman divine free-for-all. From what I've heard, they as a priestly caste were suppressed by the Romans because they had a penchant for human sacrifice, which was one of the few no-nos with the otherwise permissive polytheists.

Anyhow, I'm interested in how you were able to come to that conclusion about denying the superiority of the gods?

 

[variant]

Actually, real-life druids were very much priests... of Belenus, Dea Matrona, and a host of other Gaulish divinities whose worship was subsumed into the great Roman divine free-for-all. From what I've heard, they as a priestly caste were suppressed by the Romans because they had a penchant for human sacrifice, which was one of the few no-nos with the otherwise permissive polytheists.

Anyhow, I'm interested in how you were able to come to that conclusion about denying the superiority of the gods?

Yeah, very much priests, but it was the other way around. The Druids in Europe were influenced by Roman form of paganism and adopted multiple deities. While those of the British Isles were monotheistic.

 

[Jer]

There is a quote somewhere, maybe in ENW main page, that says a breakdown based on roles rather than power sources:

"Defender": Fighter & Paladin
"Striker": Rogue & Ranger
"Leader": Cleric & Warlord
"Controller": Wizard & ?

Yeah, I've seen that. I'm not sure how "official" it is, though. I'm still holding out hope that "Paladin" is a prestige class and we get some other class in there instead (but I'm not holding my breath or anything).

But if it is an accurate breakdown, there's a slot there for either a martial controller, a divine controller, or a second arcane controller. The druid could fit as a divine controller, but I still think that there's going to be more than one arcane class in the PHB.

But then if the druid is inspired from real-life, it's not really compatible with a cleric, it's quite the opposite, maybe someone who denies the superiority of gods over the universe. More anti-divine than divine really... Closer to a sorcerer than a priest. With that approach, a druid class would be "powered" by a different source of power than arcane or divine.

And yet I have the feeling that instead they are looking forward to "fold the druid" into the cleric class, which is exactly the opposite.

Hrm. Druids were basically celtic priests - so I'm not seeing the lack of a "divine" connection. (Of course, part of that is that in the "real world" there's no distinction between "divine magic" and "arcane magic" -- most real world magical traditions trace their roots back to a religion of some sort somewhere in their ancient past).

As for "folding the druid" into the cleric class -- I doubt that would work well in practice. It would really be a fundamental change to how the druid operates. I think we're going to get the druid as "divine shapehifter" of some kind, but I suspect that it won't be until later on (maybe in the PHB II)? The 3e shapeshifting druid archetype really does fill a niche that is different from the cleric -- if anything, I could see a druid with more limited spellcasting ability but relying more on shapeshifting and moving into a "defender" role to emphasize the differences from the cleric's role.

As for "nature" as a power source - I'm not so sure. Who else gets power from "nature"? Rangers are already rumored to be in the PHB, and there's not really a broad base of "nature" casters beyond the druid and ranger. I suppose you could reimagine the Dark Sun preserver and defiler classes as "nature"-based, but I'd rather not - I like them as arcane casters myself.

 

[Warren Okuma]

It's the only class I haven't heard about yet, neither for good or bad...

What's that smell? I smell Nerf. Could be... Take all the cool stuff away from the characters and all the flavor.

4.0 = 2.0 maybe...

 

[Crazy Jerome]

We could also see a "shifter" or "shapechanger" class in PHB 1 or 2 or later, not tied to the druid at all. It could be have "nature" as a power source, or something different. Then something approaching the druids (from 3.5 and earlier) would be a multiclass shifter/cleric.

I, for one, would really like to see the "heavy armor/batttle medic" part not be inherent in the cleric, and the shifting not be inherent in nature priest. That opens up a lot of possible, interesting options via multiclassing.

 

[alaric]

James Wyatts character roles video mentions that Druids should be able to heal as well as a cleric and therefore will fulfill the same role, but then later in the interview when he lists the actual roles he doesn't mention Druids. Instead he lists warlords as the second Leader role.