What's new with the GSL?

[Wulf Ratbane]

As for Adamant, all respect to them, but I would hardly count them as a significant 3PP company. But I could be wrong, of course. As for Green Ronin, I haven't heard anything, but then again, I do not follow them closely since they do not make stuff for my game anymore.

You're being a bit short-sighted.

How many of today's significant 3PPs were insignificant when 3e launched?

Off the top of my head, I'd say, "The top five, at least."

 

[mxyzplk]

You're being a bit short-sighted.

How many of today's significant 3PPs were insignificant when 3e launched?

Off the top of my head, I'd say, "The top five, at least."

Well, but the OGL was designed to bring success to 3pps. I think it's fair to say the GSL is not; as a result I doubt we'll see any of the little guys who are uptaking the GSLs be the industry's heavy hitters 5 years from now.

 

[Jack99]

You're being a bit short-sighted.

How many of today's significant 3PPs were insignificant when 3e launched?

Off the top of my head, I'd say, "The top five, at least."

Obviously. And I didn't imply anything about them not being able to succeed by supporting Pathfinder.

I responded to this

1. Given up, and hitched their wagon to a different horse - decided to instead invest in Pathfinder, True20, etc.

I said significant, because frankly, the fact that two small-time pdf producers out of a gazillion have shown interest in supporting PFRPG can hardly make the GSL a failure. Mxyzplk makes it sound as if there are hordes of 3PP's who have rallied to PFRPG. Do not get me wrong, I think plenty of the smaller ones will do, and maybe one of them will make it big. But let's not confuse things here. We have no way of knowing if the GSL is the reason that they stay away. It might be for you, Wulf. It certainly is for Necromancers. But it could just as well be due to a dislike of the system. Or has there been a poll amongst the 3PP's?

Either way, I still haven't seen any links about this support to PFRPG.

 

[kenmarable]

You're being a bit short-sighted.

How many of today's significant 3PPs were insignificant when 3e launched?

Off the top of my head, I'd say, "The top five, at least."

Exactly. I'm willing to bet that what will turn out to be the most successful 4e 3PP doesn't even exist yet.

People should remember that d20/3e BUILT the biggest 3PPs. Also, if you look at many of the top ones - Paizo, Green Ronin, Malhavoc - they were all started by ex-WotC employees. So, looking at the history of that era, I'd say chances are good that one of the big names that got laid off - if they can afford the start up period of time - could really make a big splash in the 4e third party niche. Or, they could wind up like the Game Mechanics - some good stuff, but not catching on like the others I listed above.

 

[kenmarable]

I said significant, because frankly, the fact that two small-time pdf producers out of a gazillion have shown interest in supporting PFRPG can hardly make the GSL a failure. Mxyzplk makes it sound as if there are hordes of 3PP's who have rallied to PFRPG. Do not get me wrong, I think plenty of the smaller ones will do, and maybe one of them will make it big.

I think the much larger factor here is that hordes of 3PP's went out of business.

Compare who was active 2 years ago to who is active now. Even many of those who didn't outright close shop are either not publishing anything or at the very least publishing only a trickle compared to before. Very few are very active. Tentativeness about the GSL and Pathfinder appear to be magnifying the existing problem of the entire 3PP industry being gutted with few left standing.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I think the much larger factor here is that hordes of 3PP's went out of business.

Compare who was active 2 years ago to who is active now. Even many of those who didn't outright close shop are either not publishing anything or at the very least publishing only a trickle compared to before. Very few are very active. Tentativeness about the GSL and Pathfinder appear to be magnifying the existing problem of the entire 3PP industry being gutted with few left standing.

I'm really hoping alot of companies that stopped publishing start up again either when the GSL is revised or when PFRPG allows 3pp licensees. Alot of those companies put out some really good product.

 

[mxyzplk]

Mxyzplk makes it sound as if there are hordes of 3PP's who have rallied to PFRPG.

Either way, I still haven't seen any links about this support to PFRPG.

Just a point of order, I didn't say anything about anyone other than Paizo going Pathfinder. My point is that the major 3pps that *were* supporting d20 previously have gone their own (various) ways - Paizo to Pathfinder, Green Ronin to True20, Mongoose to a couple systems, etc. And though certainly some of that was inevitable - GR already had True20, Paizo may have done Pathfinder anyway - I think it's clear that all the screwing around with the GSL is more than a little responsible for all the major 3pps completely focusing on these instead of 4e.

Now, if the GSL was made more open - like no more OGL poison pill clause - then these companies might support them (GR can't print a 4e Freeport Companion, for example, given the current GSL, without obsoleting the d20 and True20 and C&C versions). But by and large I think they've waited too long, and though these companies might put out something given a proper license, they've had to put their effort into non-D&D directions and likely wouldn't be highly motivated to change that.

And can you blame them? This entire debate has shown how little regard WotC has for third party publishers. Besides the GSL's hostility to publishers and the OGL, and their cancellation of the d20 STL (requiring everyone to burn their d20 stock by Jan 1), it's inarguable that 3pp support is clearly labelled as one of the least important things by WotC by virtue of the fact they're not bothering to put resource into it to get it done in any sort of timely manner. If they really cared, they'd have done it by now. Heck, most of the GSl discussions here end up with people saying "well who gives a crap about 3pps anyway, I never use their stuff, go WotC." Given all that, who in their right mind would want to enter into a business relationship with WotC via the (even revamped) GSL?

 

[The Little Raven]

I think it's clear that all the screwing around with the GSL is more than a little responsible for all the major 3pps completely focusing on these instead of 4e.

GR was focused on True20 before 4e was announced, and Paizo made the Pathfinder decision based on the fact that they needed to make a decision about their direction and hadn't seen the 4e rules yet. According to the people involved, the GSL didn't factor into those decisions, since there were little to no details on it at the time. James Jacobs even directly stated that the GSL wasn't the motivation for Pathfinder.

 

[justanobody]

The GSL did factor in because it wasn't ready at the time of the $5000 earlly buy in to offer those people the ful rules along with the GSL to be first chance to use it. The rules weren't even ready in time of the early buy-in to give to 3PP either.

So the GSL does play a part in people having to make a decision without getting a chance to see it because it was held up for whatever reason and everything revolving around 4th seems to be late or rushed.

So picking to go with Pathfinder was likely more from the GSL, than from not, since WotC dropped the ball on giving that $5000 buy in option they had put out there.

So the GSL may not have been the motivation for Pathfinder, but the GSL is what is preventing people from making things that support 4th edition, or I am sure Pazio would have a few 4th edition products in the works while they patch up Pathfinder.

:twocents:

 

[mxyzplk]

GR was focused on True20 before 4e was announced, and Paizo made the Pathfinder decision based on the fact that they needed to make a decision about their direction and hadn't seen the 4e rules yet. According to the people involved, the GSL didn't factor into those decisions, since there were little to no details on it at the time. James Jacobs even directly stated that the GSL wasn't the motivation for Pathfinder.

Read what I said next time. "Complete focus."

Lots of companies have their own system and also publish stuff for other systems. Lots of 3pps used to do that with d20. If there was a 4e OGL, I suspect Paizo, GR, etc. would publish *something* for them. Heck, they're all still publishing 3.5e/d20/OGL stuff along with their new lines.

Green Ronin has done Freeport Companions for True20, d20, Savage Worlds, and Castles & Crusades. Would they really *not* do one for 4e if it was a reasonable choice? But except for one character folio, they're not touching it. Reason? GSL.

Paizo's got an aggressive publishing schedule of many APs, supplements, and standalone adventures (still in 3.5, I might add). Why zero 4e? Why wouldn't they publish some adventures at least? Sure, Pathfinder's their direction, but WotC has had to work at being excluded totally. Reason? GSL.

Mongoose. They support a wide variety of lines. People that talk about "oh, 3pps aren't publishing much these days" aren't in touch with reality, as Mongoose is cranking out more than a dozen products per month. (Even Paizo is matching WotC's RPG output; they are far exceeding it.) And exactly one of those has been 4e (Wraith Recon).

If your contention is that the GSL has nothing to do with this state of affairs... Then what does exactly? (Real reasons, not "oh all the 3pps are out of business anyway" or "companies other than WotC aren't publishing much any more".)