[What's O.L.D Is N.E.W] Iain M Banks-inspired sci-fi campaign!

Unsung

First Post
I like that character a lot, [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION]. So is Blahblah actually the name, or just a placeholder? ;)

Everything looks to be in order to my admittedly untrained eye. (By the way, everyone: let's all assume characters start at Grade 5 unless you have some particular reason you'd like it to be otherwise.) I've read over the rules at this point, but I'll give the crunch another pass once I've gotten a little more practice with them. But let's face it, you're better at that kind of thing than I am anyway.

If your character is the cutting edge, then that tells us something about the state of technology in this future imperfect we'll be inhabiting. There may be other robots, but workable artificial intelligence is new and controversial, especially on such a miniaturized scale. Perhaps the reason people are so suspicious of inorganic intelligence is because they've been burned before? Maybe one of the colonial infranets woke up one day and things got all Skynet (or so it's said) before it was declared a strict no-fly zone.

Perhaps most other robots in this time are clunky, wheeled, distinctly nonhuman models? Out of date and out of fashion. The technology behind something like your character might have existed, but the programming to run it lagged behind, and the cost was prohibitive-- or so they thought.

Did you see Ex Machina? I haven't yet.
[MENTION=40413]GlassEye[/MENTION] Multiple perspectives on the issue of upload rights makes for some intriguing characters. If you're leaning toward 3, I'd say go with that for a start. Just because the character isn't much of a combatant at first doesn't mean that can't change over time. Also, if we wanted to really start getting meta and digging into some of the more confusing issues of identity and the concept of self (and really, why wouldn't we?), then what about this: you uploaded a version of your consciousness at some point. One of the things I liked about your early concept was that you touched upon the idea of having multiple versions of the same person online. Maybe one of those people became a popular-albeit-synthetic media personality (a la Max Headroom), while the other was forced underground, and might have picked up some combat skills along the way?

I don't mind you running more than one character if you don't. :)

Alternatively, for your second character concept, if Shayuri's character were being sheltered by the Culture (or alternatively, if she/it were offered sanctuary by another Earthly nation), then you might have an excuse to play diplomat without having given up your original character concept. The military still wants her back so they can decommission this project for good, but perhaps you can be the one to persuade them otherwise.

--
With regard to the date and tech-level of the setting, I'm thinking along these lines: some cataclysmic event or war that led to a somewhat sparsely populated, heavily balkanized and thoroughly terraformed solar system. Travel through jump gates cuts the time to travel between the planets down to days and hours instead of months and years. Corporations and governments are viciously proprietary when it comes to any developments in science or technology, leading to strange pockets of development, where they may be amazingly advanced in one area, such as neuroscience, computer hardware, and virtual reality, but then woefully underdeveloped in others even by today's standards. All the myriad dystopias happening at once, as a premise.

Is that too depressing? Like Shadowrun, like Cowboy Bebop or Mad Max, there's a sense of freedom that comes of breaking ties with the present/past.

As for Banks's stance on the Fermi Paradox, I think it was actually touched upon once in an interview, and brought up more directly in some of the later books. If they're out there, why haven't they come to see us? The answer is: who's to say they haven't? Basically, the Culture are sufficiently advanced that if they didn't want us to know they were there, we wouldn't; if they didn't want us to know anyone else was there, they could arrange that too. The same goes for other civs of their level, and the next level above that is society-wide transcendence/might-as-well-be-godhead.

There's no Prime Directive per se, and the Involved generally mess with lower-level civilizations as they see fit, but it's considered bad form to simply go in and co-opt entire peoples, planets, and perspectives wholesale. Influence is one thing. Overt displays of power? Très gauche.
 

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Unsung

First Post
Using one of the N.O.W variant humans is perfectly fine by me. Depending on your concepts as we go along, additional tweaks might make sense for the fiction. Given how very wide the definition of 'human' is within the Culture (Spartans, Venetians, Borians, and even Ogrons would all have to make an argument for *not* being human), I'd be hard-pressed to try and come up with a single unifying, definitive profile.

So if you want to take any other species, race, or heritage as a base and then call it human or some other name, I'm likely to be fine with it. :D
 

GlassEye

Adventurer
Re: Human. A generic beginning was what I was going for with the media personality and so Human worked perfectly for it. Just wanted to mention that since I probably came across a little negatively at first.

Shayuri, I agree #2 would be tricky. And I really like the background you wrote so would be very reluctant to ask you to make changes to it. So, I'm going to go with #3 for that reason and because I just like it the best.

We can work out the details of how our two characters work things out to their mutual benefit; I do like the 'going public' side if that works for you. As another option, maybe my character lucked into an interview (or series of interviews) with a Culture citizen and you saw it in the datastream, contacted that citizen, but had to use another agency (CB's PC?) to connect. I don't know, just riffing on different ideas.

EDIT: And of course, I didn't even realize there was another page when I posted. I like those ideas, Unsung, and I think I had lost that original concept sometime in the interval so I'm glad you reminded me of it. I'll look at what I've been working on for the media personality and see how I can work it in again.
 
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Shayuri

First Post
I like that character a lot, [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION]. So is Blahblah actually the name, or just a placeholder?

Totally a placeholder. :)

Everything looks to be in order to my admittedly untrained eye. (By the way, everyone: let's all assume characters start at Grade 5 unless you have some particular reason you'd like it to be otherwise.) I've read over the rules at this point, but I'll give the crunch another pass once I've gotten a little more practice with them. But let's face it, you're better at that kind of thing than I am anyway.

Hee hee, thanks. I thiiiiiink I got it right, but it's always good having another pair of eyes or three. I do have embarrassing derps from time to time.

If your character is the cutting edge, then that tells us something about the state of technology in this future imperfect we'll be inhabiting. There may be other robots, but workable artificial intelligence is new and controversial, especially on such a miniaturized scale. Perhaps the reason people are so suspicious of inorganic intelligence is because they've been burned before? Maybe one of the colonial infranets woke up one day and things got all Skynet (or so it's said) before it was declared a strict no-fly zone.

Yeah, my narrative instincts say that robotics is fairly advanced, but also pretty expensive. Small 'pet' type robots are toys for the rich. Larger ones are typically tools for well off businesses. The kind of robot that this character is technologically feasible, but could never be economic on any scale other than military. :)

Artificial intelligence is a controversial subject, placed on a similar axis as human cloning and genetic engineering in some ways. It's been developing in tandem with advances in prosthetics and other forms of neurally controlled hardware. As humans learned to interface brain and machine, they also by necessity started learning how the data structures of the brain worked. This in turn led to the possibility of imitating them more precisely. However, research into complex AI that has the potential to be 'volitional' is unpopular. It happens, but quietly, and under tight controls.


There may be other AI's therefore, though because the computer in my character utilizes very new and specialized technology, they're unlikely to be in mobile platforms. In fact, given the climate of research, it's more likely that any AI system would be isolated from electronic contact and kept secret. Much like my character was, only they can't just walk out. :)

Perhaps most other robots in this time are clunky, wheeled, distinctly nonhuman models? Out of date and out of fashion. The technology behind something like your character might have existed, but the programming to run it lagged behind, and the cost was prohibitive-- or so they thought.

Yeah, I think humanoid robots in particular are very unusual. The engineering challenges associated with making something like that have largely been solved, but it requires expensive talent and resources to pull off...and it's almost never a good bargain. If a human form was the right form for the job, it's almost always better just to use a human. :)

So I guess the short version is that robots like my character are possible in the world, but in almost all cases aren't economically feasible. The project that created my character was an experiment...a testbed. Can it work? How does it work? The goal would have been to get the costs involved down at some point, but that would have been quite a ways off.

Ironically, the 'intelligence' of the robot was not a big design goal of the military funding. It wanted the unit to be able to act semi-autonomously, with intermittent contact from a human operator that monitored its progress and could give general instructions. But when you throw money at AI researchers playing with revolutionary new computer technology...this is what happens. :)


Did you see Ex Machina? I haven't yet.

I have! And I borr...stol...uh...was inspired by that in some aspects here. :)
 
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Shayuri

First Post
Hm! Reading more, I get the sense that my brain is kind of in the 'Earth is Cyberpunk' mindset, where you guys are more into the 'Earth is early Space-Opera.'

Which is totally cool. If the solar system is colonized and people are uploading their minds, then it means AI is almost certainly a thing that has been developed.

So we could say there's a distinction made perhaps, between the non-volitional 'expert systems' that are in common use, the far more complex 'volitional' or 'general' AIs that are the big mainframe type systems, and AI that lack the design elements that prevent them from becoming 'seed' AI, to borrow a phrase from Eclipse Phase. Seed AI is deemed a danger, due to its ability to recursively improve itself, threatening the formation of a nonhuman technological singularity.

Thus, my character was secret not because of illegality or public opinion, but just because this model of robot...utilizing state of the art robotics and brand new computer tech that allowed sufficient complexity of design on a mobile platform...was a military secret, and it's effectiveness would be compromised if word of it got around.

But then the AI software, perhaps in unexpected synergy with the new kind of computer, developed volitional abilities that weren't expected or designed for. In the process, it became a potential Seed AI, which is why the project was shut down so fast. And of course, the more my character showed signs of that type of activity, the more misgivings even its friends and allies had about continuing to shelter it.

Glass Eye, my thought is that my character would have contacted you electronically, and presented you with the story, along with a few items of evidence. The items of evidence were actually a sort of a puzzle, and a test, leading you along a trail of interactions and actions that were intended to determine your attitudes towards AI. My character initially pretended to be human, though dropped that pretense once it was satisfied that you were not hostile.
 

Unsung

First Post
Hm! Reading more, I get the sense that my brain is kind of in the 'Earth is Cyberpunk' mindset, where you guys are more into the 'Earth is early Space-Opera.'

Which is totally cool. If the solar system is colonized and people are uploading their minds, then it means AI is almost certainly a thing that has been developed.

It's a bit of both, honestly. Space opera noir. "A new life awaits you in the off-world colonies! The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!"

I mean, Blade Runner was set in 2019. Surely we'll be on our way to colonizing the solar system by 2070? :p
 

Shayuri

First Post
Could be! I was a little confused though...has Earth made contact with the Culture already at game start? Or are they lurking, keeping an eye on things? Perhaps with clandestine contact here and there to help guide and shape, but otherwise keeping quiet?

Escape to space would make a lot of sense for a fugitive AI on the go though.
 

Unsung

First Post
My thinking is that the Culture's presence is a secret to most people, but possibly not to your characters. You might know them by another name, and you might not know the true scope of what they represent, but you probably know them as a force for what you might call good.

Up to you if you think learning about them in-game is more interesting, though! Just throwing out the possibilities.
 

Shayuri

First Post
I think it would be fun if the initial 'prologue' of the game was the story of the PCs making their first contact with the Culture.

That said, it would be neat if a PC was a sort of 'undercover agent' for the Culture as well. Though actually, I think so far we've all pitched newbies....which is also fine. You get that sense of wonder and mystery that way.
 

GlassEye

Adventurer
I was just thinking about the contact issue when I get online and see you all are ahead of me, again. :) I was thinking of my character in terms of having ridden the wave of xenophilia to media popularity which would need a minimal level of previous knowledge of alien existence to work. The idea isn't hardwired into the concept, though, and could be left out or something yet to come.
 

GlassEye

Adventurer
[section]
Poju Whitten-Loiri, a distracted human Media personality who dreams of the stars.

As a youth Poju was obsessed with celebrity and technology. He wanted nothing more than to be on the cutting edge and famous for it. While still young his parents had polycognitive processors implanted; processors and software that could spin off a partial personality 'ghost', run simulations, and reintegrate the ghost and information.

For Poju's parents it was an educational tool and a safety net should the unthinkable happen. Poju used it carelessly: he activated a complete upload of his personality (whom he called Poul), treated it like a digital valet, and rarely reintegrated ghosts or ended simulations leaving that for his upload to manage.

In college Poju focused on media studies and his social life; Poul on upload/AI rights, exploring the limits of his digital mind, and making sure Poju passed his classes. After graduation Poju and Poul split. Poju and his lover, Simon, bummed around Europe pulling cons and skipping town before they could be reported to the authorities. Poul downloaded into Simon's clone and went to explore his own non-virtual life.

After nearly a year of travel Poju discovered his video journal on travel, technology, celebrity, and society had developed a small but growing following. He spent the next several years building his career as a media personality.​
[/section]

Grade 5; Hook attribute: Cha

Strength 4 (2d6)
Agility 6 (3d6)
Endurance 5 (2d6)
Willpower 4 (2d6)
Intuition 3 (2d6)
Logic 3 (2d6)
Charisma 9 (3d6)
Luck 6 (3d6)
Reputation 3 (2d6)

Health: 0 [roll0]
Speed: 5 (2 climb/swim)
Jump: 12' horiz, 4' vert
Carry: 90 lbs
Initiative: 2d6
Defense
- Melee: 4d6 [14]
- Ranged: 4d6 [14]
- Mental: 2d6+5 [12]

Attacks:
- Unarmed: 3d6 (1d6+2)
- Melee: 3d6
- Ranged: 3d6

Skills
Acting 3 (2d6)
Bluffing 2 (1d6)
Carousing 4 (2d6)
Computers 1 (1d6)
Dancing 1 (1d6)
Dodging 1 (1d6)
Hardy 1 (1d6)
Journalism 3 (2d6)
Singing 1 (1d6)
Trivia: Celebrities 1 (1d6)

Exploits:
- Aim: +1d6 to ranged attack roll
- Deadly Strike: +1d6 dmg on hit (ranged)
- Distracted: 1/day ally gains +2d6 on attribute check

Gear
Credits: 380 ([roll1] *20; min 100)

Weapons


Armor


[sblock=Specifics of Species, Origin, Career, etc]Species: Augmented (28 yrs old)
End +1, Str +1, Agi +1
Skill choices: Computers, Hardy, Trivia: Celebrities
Exploits
- Alteration: begin with 2 minor cybernetic alterations.
-- Polycognitive Processor: +5 Mental Defense
-- Voice synthesizer: +1d6 Cha to deceive others
- Adaptive: Routine [10] End check for successful implanting. +2 alterations beyond End limit
Trait
- Distracted

Origin: Everyman ([roll2] yrs)
End +1, Agi +1 (s), Cha +1, Luc +1
Skill Choices: Dodging (d), Acting
Exploits
- Ordinary: +1d6 to bluff, disguise, or otherwise blend in unremarked

Career:
College [Journalism] (4 yrs)
Log +1, Wil +1, Cha +1, Rep +1
Skills: Bluffing, Carousing
Exploits
- Bachelor: Journalism 3; +1d6 to research attempts

Con Artist ([roll3] yrs)
Int +1, Agi +1 (s), Cha +1, Luc +1
Skills: Bluffing, Carousing
Exploits
- Beguiling: Cha vs. Mental Defense to charm target
Prison check [roll4]

Performer ([roll5] yrs)
Cha +2, Luc +1, Rep +1
Skills: Acting, Carousing
Exploits
- Triple-threat: Singing, dancing, & acting at 1 rank.

Performer
Cha +2, Luc +1, Rep +1
Skills: Acting, Carousing
Exploits
-Fearful: w/ two actions per turn (and failed Cha vs. Mental Def.) target takes -1d6 to all interactions with you

Notes:
Did a fair amount of tweaking, particularly with species & attribute substitution to balance out the character a little more so it isn't just mental/Cha.
Currently only four careers since I needed to make the prison check after the Con Artist career. After I know, I'll add a 5th career.
(s): species attribute substitution
(d): defense skill
Polycognitive Processor: as 'Psionic scrambler' (which was on the WOIN website but not in the NEW chargen pdf) but implanted processors that run personality fragments for increased cognition.
Still need to work out history.
[/sblock]
 
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GlassEye

Adventurer
Ok, I've added the last career and a history for the character. Poju is... unlikeable. Or rather, he's very likeable but I don't think I like him. Not so much so that I would find him unplayable, though. And the history is still mutable, especially the bits about Poul (and being downloaded) since I'm not entirely convinced that I want or am capable of playing a second PC in this setting. Your idea is intriguing, though, and why I added Poul.

Mechanically, Poju ages [roll0] for his last career and gains an additional [roll1] to his CR calculation from increased Luck and Rep pools.
 

Unsung

First Post
Very, very cool. Even if you don't end up playing Poul, that's a great background element to draw upon. :D And it's good sometimes to play characters who aren't exactly heroes themselves to start with. They can still become more likable with time and effort, or at the least they can throw the real heroes into sharp relief. Cynicism contrasts well with Culture idealism. Flaws are interesting, conflict is good.

Poju and Poul also fit nicely into the whole cyber-pre-stellar-post-noir setup in general-- the whole Prince and the Pauper angle (or is it Town Mouse, Country Mouse?). The one of them travelling the world(s?), bumming around while living off an inheritance, falling bass-ackwards into money and celebrity. It's a nice precipice for a potentially humbling fall, perhaps. :devil:
 

Shayuri

First Post
One thing I like about your background for Poju is that I can immediately see where my AI character would select him out of the sea of possible choices to try to contact. His experience with digital intelligences, having created one in fact, makes him a natural choice.

Of course, I might be dismayed to see just how little regard Poju has for his act of creation. :)

It also makes an interesting question...is there a distinction between an artificial intelligence that is a copy of a human mind, and one that is completely artificially constructed? Should there be? Is Poul 'less' artificial because of his origin?
 

GlassEye

Adventurer
The difficulty I have in thinking about Poju/Poul is that they are identical up to the point of uploading and share years of development; how much divergence would there really be in the two? Poju is superficial and driven by celebrity*. How much of that survives in Poul who might be legally considered nothing more than a clever simulation and must deal with being a non-entity? These questions are mostly why I stopped with Poul after a certain point; I wasn't sure who he would be.

There are two possibilities that I see for Poul at the start of game. 1) He's still digital and in Poju's implant/wearables or 2) he's already downloaded into a body. But this question is less important than the previous identity question, imo.

If Poju/Poul are still jointly incarnate it would certainly be easier to draw Poju into aiding Shayuri's character.

As for the question of distinction between upload and AI? If there is a distinction it's a pretty fine one. Poul is no less artificial because of his origin but probably more likely to be eventually accepted as human than an AI. Of course, this is less important when we reach the Culture.

* Hmm. If Poju's desire for celebrity is a desire to be recognized as somebody of importance it isn't too far off to think that Poul modifies that desire to simply be recognized as a separate entity.
 

Shayuri

First Post
Arr...one thing to consider is the cultural ramifications. Is it commonplace to digitally upload your mind? Are there laws regarding the practice? Are the copies considered property? And if it's fairly common and easy to digitally copy your mind and download it into a body, then we have immortality for those who can keep 'spare' bodies, or arrange for the preparation of one posthumously.

Does that mean this futuristic human society is approaching the Culture's technology level, at least in this regard?

There are some interesting possibilities.

For example, suppose Poul is, for the moment, not embodied. He's a 'virtual intelligence' that serves as your personal assistant. Supposedly non-volitional, but because he's a copy of you he shares your quirks.

Then, once we contact the Culture, the expanded technology let you contemplate 'uplifting' Poul to a true AI. Or perhaps you'd prefer to simply delete him and make a new copy using this superior technology?

That puts some of the questions and conflicts front and center during the game's events instead of as part of your background...and it lets us sidestep the questions of how access to braintapes and technological immortality would transform human society, until we get to the Culture where they've been dealing with that sort of thing for awhile now. :)
 

GlassEye

Adventurer
Very good points. I started a post half a dozen times last night addressing various tangents to the issues you've mentioned but eventually opted to try to keep it as close to a character level as I could because I didn't want to arbitrarily make world decisions. The background as is right now does make certain assumptions but it is easily edited. I like your solutions to move this to game rather than background.
 

I have been MIA for a week of vacation and then a week getting caught up at work. I'm here now, however, and will be resuming activity today and tomorrow.
 

Unsung

First Post
It also makes an interesting question...is there a distinction between an artificial intelligence that is a copy of a human mind, and one that is completely artificially constructed? Should there be? Is Poul 'less' artificial because of his origin?

The most Cultured answer I could give in this situation might be mu (unask the question). ;)

...Which is to say there is a distinction, but not a meaningful one. Sentience and thought have inherent value. Whether the owner of the mind in question is machine or organic, intelligence by their definition can't be artificial.

Of course, I think it's strongly implicated by our discussion thus far that the majority of Earthers don't feel the same. Human rights are for humans only-- possibly for 'citizens' only, if this future is as bleak as the live organ farming trade would suggest. And they're hardly inalienable. If there is a vogue for mental uploads, then anti-machine bigotry is probably rising.

But what if it works the other way, too? If your upload can be resleeved into another body in the event of your death, then what about an upload arranging for the murder of the original, to take their place?

GlassEye said:
There are two possibilities that I see for Poul at the start of game. 1) He's still digital and in Poju's implant/wearables or 2) he's already downloaded into a body. But this question is less important than the previous identity question, imo.

I see other possibilities. :) He could be harboured on the net somewhere, ferried about in digital form to stand in for Poju for those parts of his life he finds onerous. Celebrity appearances, talking to family, etc.

But going back to what you actually suggested... The first possibility also brings up the question of how powerful and readily available implants and wearables are. I've got to assume that an entire mental construct takes up a lot of electronic real estate. The second possibility, on the other hand... Uploading is a relatively new technology, from the sound of things. How reliable is the downloading process, then? Would you want to simply have a copy of yourself walking around in the real? If not, what recourse does the upload have to achieving download? For that matter, where does the body in question come from? Volunteers? Cloning vats? Condemned convicts? And what happens if a download goes awry, and the persona is incomplete or corrupted?

Food for thought. Personally I say don't worry too much about pinning down backstory or setting details absolutely. Some things can be allowed to emerge during play.
 
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Unsung

First Post
CanadienneBacon said:
I have been MIA for a week of vacation and then a week getting caught up at work. I'm here now, however, and will be resuming activity today and tomorrow.

No problem. :) It's understandable. This month's been all over the place for me. I don't know what's going to happen to my availability in August, either, between moving and weddings and the rest of it.
 

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